Neverwinter Nights - why are you guys so negative ?

Hi everybody,

As many know my website, I won't describe my CRPG tastes, but I love "turn based isometric RPGs with strong storylines and freedom" (okay, let's say Fallout )

BUT...

...I really don't understand why you all trash Neverwinter Nights !

Okay, it's no turn based, okay, the module provided with the game sucks (they even wasn't envisaged to provide one at first), but I think this game is really providing a great engine to create your RPG modules, and make your friends play your modules. The graphics are good, the interface is great as it's completely customisable...

...and for the gameplay, there are also so many GREAT modules available to download on the web. It's offering an infinite set of modules as people are creating them with the Aurora Toolset. And I find this toolset is easy and powerful to use.

Do you know many games you buy once, and can download freely hundreds of adventure modules on the web ?

Did you guys look at Neverwinter as a game engine among a world building tool, and not as badly and hastily included single player module, provided as people were asking for it ?

...my two cents.


Frank
aka
Dagon

http://www.dagonslair.com[/url]

the_dagon said:

...and for the gameplay, there are also so many GREAT modules available to download on the web. It's offering an infinite set of modules as people are creating them with the Aurora Toolset. And I find this toolset is easy and powerful to use.

Frank
aka
Dagon

http://www.dagonslair.com[/url]

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name one mod worth playing. I've downloaded a bunch of mods, and they're all horrible. Half of these mod authors don't even bother editing their products. The other half can't even type english properly. I've played at least 5 mods involving this line: "Theres a sexy elf gurl in teh forest. U have 2 kill teh trools plz."

The best mod I've played so far is Honor Among Thieves, and even there the writing isn't that great.

I paid 50 bucks for a game, not a toolset plus amateur mods.

I hated the constant transitions, the camera angles, the quality of the graphics (I'm amazed that you think they're good), the fact the most people I played with couldn't roleplay.

And then I hated people who thought they could rolpelay but were just D&D fascists who would refuse to play with my evil aligned character.

NWN gave me a taste of what a computer version of PnP could be but just a taste. I'm hoping NWN2 addresses my concerns.

whitemithrandir said:

I paid 50 bucks for a game, not a toolset plus amateur mods.

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OMG! U r teh noob! Its 1 of teh bests RPG products evar! Feargus sez so.

the_dagon said:

The graphics are good, the interface is great as it's completely customisable...
... snip ...
Do you know many games you buy once, and can download freely hundreds of adventure modules on the web ?

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NWN graphics are average, at best, and worst in the ways that count. For instance, I've recently started a new game of Planescape:Torment. PS:T's hand-drawn environments, in all their 640x480 glory, make NWN's tiles look like crap in comparison. IMO, hand-drawn art creates a better atmosphere than "toolset-oriented" tiles.

Don't you get the feeling that all the "great," freely available modules look the same over time? That all the towns, inns, and pubs look the same? I wonder why that is... Mind you, this is the real feature of NWN, the toolset. Who needs a great single-player game when the developer can rely on the community to create free modules from cookie-cutter environments and hacks to workaround hardcoded rules? How does it feel to pay to have work outsourced to you and your friends?

Of course there are some great modules/adventures out there. This Necromancer module isn't bad, btw: http://nwvault.ign.com/Files/modules/data/1046208685968.shtml I'm still, however, sour on NWN.

because we mutherfucking WANT to, and we don't live in Red China. Since you read enough about our opinions to know that we feel that way, howcome you haven't read one of the gajillion threads where people explain why? Why do you think that in THIS thread, us repeating all our reasons will suddenly make sense?

Le_Dragon said:

-snip-

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Wow, you sure put things into perspective for me, dude. It was truly enlightening and to be honest, I only bashed NWN because I wanted Saint_Proverbius to like me.

But now I feel strong enough to finally admit that NWN is tHE EP1TOEME OFF R0LLPaLAYING FUNZ!

Do you know many games you buy once, and can download freely hundreds of adventure modules on the web ?

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Yes.

Because I don't want mods. I paid for professionally done content. The fact that people claim certain mods are better than the OC shows something is fucked up.

*patiently awaits for the next person to come in and try to defend NWN*

We're negative because you're French. Thus it's hip (and rewarding) to hate you and anything you like.

neverwinter...

undead dolphin hacker said:

We're negative because you're French. Thus it's hip (and rewarding) to hate you and anything you like.

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:shock: I knew it, I knew it :shock:

quite a storm of answers here, I'll try to answer most of them:

about good modules, I loved Necromancer (seems I'm not the only one), Ravenloft, Avatarship : Ultima 4 remake, The Sunless Citadel, a french module called "le batard" (oops no french reference, sorry), and Pool of Radiance (much better than the official game... EVEN if the official one was turn based). For sure I cannot judge english language quality...

personnally I played most of the modules with a group of friends, and we had great fun playing together and roleplaying (yes we did, as we did in Ultima Online, as SOME other people did in UO too - remember the orcs - ). I think NWN2 won't change people playing online. Only a few ones are roleplaying, other are young and stupid powerplayers. There's no solution for that.

about graphics, I liked them when it was released, but for sure it's a bit outdated now, but for 3D, when released, I think it was looking good. I don't think other recent RPGs are half as good as NWN, graphically speaking. Surely not Lionheart, Divine Divinity (is that a RPG ?), Icewind Dale 2 or the awful Mistmare (all those are from after 2001). I'm also not sure the main quality of Arcanum was its' graphic engine.

NWN allowed many non-professionals to create modules, without bothering having to learn coding being stopped by drawing. The problem of the different modules always looking the same is the direct consequence of it. NWN toolset however let custom themes to be included in your modules if you want.

At last but not least :
if I talk about what I liked in NWN, it's because I "don't live in Red China" so even if there is a "gajillion threads" telling you didn't like NWN, I think I can tell I can't agree. Usually I agree most of the time with rpgcodex guys, but seems not always...

...sorry for the (too) long post and the english mistakes (I'm STILL french) :wink:

I think DD and IWD2 are both graphically highly superior to NWN.

"Don't you get the feeling that all the "great," freely available modules look the same over time?"

No.


"I think DD and IWD2 are both graphically highly superior to NWN."

No.

Yes.

Next :arrow:

While the graphics ain't all that good, what's really sub-par is the art direction. What's up with the horrible clown suits and atrocious inventory art? it worries me they have the same guy on board for NWN2.

Also, I think it's pretty obvious the game wouldn't have sold 2 mill + copies if it was only a toolset. So the OC is to thank for most of the sales, after all... (whateverrrrr Volourn).

'Ooh. I bet this dead horse hasn't been raped nasally before'

I paid 50 bucks for a game, not a toolset plus amateur mods.

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Amen, Brovah!

Volourn said:

"Don't you get the feeling that all the "great," freely available modules look the same over time?"

No.

"I think DD and IWD2 are both graphically highly superior to NWN."

No.

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The first of today's "Volourn proves he is a tool" posts! Man, it's as predicatable as watching The Price is Right on a sick day.

And NWN sucks. Sorry frenchie. I don't give a fuck if it lets previously unheard-of individuals make modules. Who cares? If they're too lazy to get up and join a good devhouse or program their own engine, I couldn't really care less about how good their ideas are.

Sure, a good NWN mod could be a "gateway" to getting into a devhouse, and in the rare instances that this occurs, that's fine with me. Unfortunately that's an amazingly rare case.

In short, I just can't respect folks who churn out mods for NWN as a "hobby" as anything less than amateurs. Even if they have talent, they evidently don't have the saavy it takes to realize that, beyond a certain point of building a "portfolio," they're spinning their creative tires in Atariware's fetid mud.

baelstren said:

NWN graphics are average, at best, and worst in the ways that count. For instance, I've recently started a new game of Planescape:Torment. PS:T's hand-drawn environments, in all their 640x480 glory, make NWN's tiles look like crap in comparison. IMO, hand-drawn art creates a better atmosphere than "toolset-oriented" tiles.

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What's even MORE special is that they're NOT HAND PAINTED. Everything you see in BG, IWD, and PS:T are prerendered models that are later touched up in a paint program. Not a lick of that shit is hand drawn. Never was.

NWN combat and gameplay sucks. Therefore the only thing new modules can offer is good writing. If the only thing good is the writing, it mite as well be fanfic, and I don't need fanfic.

Making a non-linear module with lots of choices would be hard as hell. And the combat would still suck in it.

I personally thought Divine Divinity's graphics were much better than NWN's. Seeing your character's reflection in a pool in a dungeon was a great, if simple, touch.

I guess I was just disappointed by the NWN Graphics engine and OC.

I am quite happy to admit that the Bio IE engine is my favourite CRPG engine ever - I loved the non-tiled, beautiful backdrops. I even enjoyed the Pause n' Play combat.

NWN was just disappointing in comparison. The tile backdrops were blocky and repetitive, and the OC was average at best (although the expansions were a little better). I've played a few fan mods - some are quite good, but none of them were half as satisfying as any of the professionally made IE games.

Playing on-line is OK, but I find playing with strangers frustrating, and as most of my old role-playing buddies live all over the world now, organising a good time to play is near-on impossible...and it's not something you can drop in for half an hour like a first person shooter and have fun.

I don't think it's bad, but for what I look for in a CRPG, it's sadly lacking.

I am quite happy to admit that the Bio IE engine is my favourite CRPG engine ever - I loved the non-tiled, beautiful backdrops. I even enjoyed the Pause n' Play combat.

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I love the infinity engine to death. IWD 2 was a much better implementation of 3e rules than NWN.

I also hated how, to play the single player campaign online, you had to actually beat it in single player mode first, or try to find a game playing it. For a game that touts itself as the next evolution in multiplayer RPG gaming, that was disapointing.

They promised a lot, and it doesn't feel to me like they delivered.

This shit again? What the fuck? Some people don't like NWN. Deal with it. Stop making useless threads about it.

the_dagon said:

...I really don't understand why you all trash Neverwinter Nights !

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Here's the short form kid

Neverwinter nights was announced during the creation of Baldurs Gate II. It's original premise was as a strictly multiplayer game, that would be fully fleshed out version of the ruleset with full DM tools, shipped with a selection of mulitplayer modules, with the promise of continued updates for both modules and content from Bioware.

About a year and half later the fevor that accompanied the over the top, drooling accolades of Baldur's gate II, a massive message board lobbying campaign from BG II fanatics arose and demanded a single player game from NWN.

Too stupid to realize that NWN was envisioned as a "different" type game apologist and supporters of the original vision (such as myself) where drowned out in hail of obnoxious lobbying from those who really only wanted BG3 and were not accepting of the novelty of mulitplayer only game (remember this is all before the MMORPG glut) regardless of massive strides the full implentation of the rules and real DM tools would put on the genre of D&D CRPG's.

Instead of sticking to their guns, as we had all assumed (after all, Bioware was our favorite maverick game developer) Bioware caved to popular demand, and decided at about the 85% development point to then include a single player aspect to the game.
This set the release date back about another 18-24 months (where the change to 3rd ed rules came into play, Im a little foggy on, that was an issue as well )
Bioware was either oblivious or cared not that they were now developing a single player game built with a multiplayer engine, and concessions to rules now became the norm, in order to incorporate the addition of the single player game.
Idiotic decisions began to be made everything from the assine way henchman were implemented to serious nerfing of the 3rd Ed rules to make things "easier", to the writing decisions of the flat out horrible story. Serious testing of the DM tools and additional content to the toolset all became secondary to the developement process.

Upon it's release the serious lack of testing and development of Mulitplayer portion of the game was readily apparent to those of us who still stupidly supported Bioware. To top it off the lack of quality in the single player campaign was totally laughable.

Bioware then lumbered onward making update after update in there own fucked up way trying to appease everyone instead of just trying to finish the game they claimed they wanted to make. By never picking an audience for the game they tried to white-wash all interested D&D players with a little or this and a little of that, never satisying anyone but the most ignorant of gamers who were the easiest to please. This lowest common demoninator is what became the NWN FANBASE that carried the game thru 2 expansions. let not forget the games publisher, Atari was of course was all over their ass to make it more like an MMORPG at as those were so "hot" at this point. If Bioware had any regrets about they way things were shaping up the tons of cash being made by sliding to the lowest common demoninator made it easy.

In summation Bioware sold out D&D fans that wanted what would have been an innovative and ground breaking product, in turn they got a half assed product that really appeased "no one" but those that didn't know any better. They always took the whatever route offered the biggest short term payday and their claim as maverick developers went up in smoke as they became a typical gluttonous corporation. The only saving grace of the whole debacle is the NWN community who always took the extra step to pick up Biowares slack, but even now the apologists in that camp have grown few and far between. So when guys like Feargus, who's obviously lost his long term memory, say NWN2 is going to "ROCK", but it's going to be hard to follow up such a great game like NWN.
You need understand why many say FUCK YOU.