c.s.i.p.rpg fun with NWN excusists

Saint_Proverbius · Jan 1, 2003

Someone wrote a rather nasty review of NWN and posted it on c.s.i.p.rpg, which naturally got the NWN fanboys annoyed much like my review did. They used the usual, "What? You morons didn't know it was a multiplayer game?" and "If you were paying attention, you'd have known the editors were the focus." excuses to make up for the single player game.

Anyway, I decided to dig up the old press release for NWN going gold and throwing it in their faces.

Subject: Re: Why Neverwinter Nights might be the worst game ever...
From: "Saint_Proverbius" <proverbius@duckandcover.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg

boot@nmt.edu (James Garvin) wrote in
news:fb7298f.0212311133.7c664c6d@posting.google.com:

> Eh? They sold it as a Modable game that had a crappy (Bioware didn't
> even like it) SP campaign installed.

They didn't? Really? Let's look at BioWare's press release then, since it
basically floors everything you and Knight37 have been saying in this
thread.

http://www.bioware.com/bioware_info/pre ... s/nwngold/

Here's a few choice quotes from that press release:

"Neverwinter Nights has lived up to all of its promises - engaging and
exciting single player campaign, a groundbreaking multiplayer component,
never-before-seen user editing abilities and, for the first time ever, a
true translation of the D&DÂ® ?Dungeon Master? to electronic entertainment."

NOTICE! They mention the single player first, and refer to it as "engagng
and exciting".

"The game contains an amazing 60-100 hour single player campaign that is
also playable in multiplayer mode."

NOTICE! The single player game is "amazing", and the fact you can play it
in multiplayer is after the fact.

"The development team, a group of exceptionally creative, smart people -
has done an amazing job: Neverwinter Nightsh as an incredibly engaging 60-
100 hour official campaign, playable in either single-player or in
multiplayer mode. Everything in the campaign has been built with the same
BioWare Aurora Neverwinter Toolset that is also bundled with the game."

NOTICE! Again, the single player campaign is listed first, it's marked as
"incredibly engaging". The editors are merely bundled with the game, and
notice the lack superfluous hype adjectives when refering to it.

"Linux gamers can anticipate the online release of the Neverwinter Nights
server at launch and the client program shortly afterward."

I just listed this because it's funny that the Linux client still isn't
done, six months later.

But hey, here's the important thing. You guys can clamor and bang those
editor drums all you want. You can claim this game is *PRIMARILY
MULTIPLAYER* all you want as well. It doesn't change the fact that even
BioWare, who wrote this press release, put the campaign first above all the
other features when it came to hyping it.

In other words, don't say *I* wasn't paying attention, or *Mistress* wasn't
paying attention, because it's clear to anyone that reads that press
release, which I'll say again, BioWare wrote it, that the awful campaign
the game shipped with was the focus and everything else was *bundled*.

--
Saint Proverbius
http://www.rpgcodex.com - Putting the 'Role' back in RPG

Araanor · Jan 2, 2003

I particularly enjoy the part where they hype the dev team to kingdom come. Even if the game had been groundbreaking and all that, do they feel no shame releasing that to the press?

"The development team, a group of exceptionally creative, smart people -
has done an amazing job"

Sheesh.

Rosh · Jan 2, 2003

Here's some more fun.

Let's play Spot The Stoopid:

http://www.pcgr.com/dailynews/comments/ ... 32827,.asp

Vikjunk · Jan 2, 2003

The development team, a group of exceptionally creative, smart people -
has done an amazing job

Nice PR job. Makes them sound like an amateur development team.

Jed · Jan 2, 2003

B00bies!!!!11

Some Idiot said:
Name: palidinperfection
Date: December 13, 2002 - 1:35 PM
Comment:
Man I hope they continue the story, I can't stop thinking about what happens to Aribeth...

The whole story that the game tells of her is what keeps me interested in the game...

Oh yeah and the fact that she is PERFECT doesn't hurt things either.... !!

I think this post simply speaks volumes. Now I'm going to PERFECTLY puke in the toilet.

J

Saint_Proverbius · Jan 2, 2003

Araanor said:
I particularly enjoy the part where they hype the dev team to kingdom come. Even if the game had been groundbreaking and all that, do they feel no shame releasing that to the press?

Well, the part that gets me is that these guys are obviously hyping the campaign the game ships with more than anything else. So, the game was released and most people noticed after a few hours of play time that the campaign was complete an utter shit. So what do the BioWare fans do? They downplay the campaign by saying things like, "The important part is something other than the campaign, like the editors or the multiplayer!" and even say things like, "Well, BioWare even thought the campaign sucked." when none of that is true.

Yes, it is cute how often BioWare hypes themselves to the press. If you'll read any press release they've made or any interview they've done, there's always several lines where they end up stroking their egos.

BioWare wouldn't bother me nearly as much if they didn't constantly bullshit about their features, like claiming NWN would be similar to Fallout, and talk about how wonderful they are even though they consistantly fail to deliver.

"The development team, a group of exceptionally creative, smart people -
has done an amazing job"

Yet it takes them five years and 75 people to do something other developers have done with less time and less money.

Rosh · Jan 2, 2003

Re: B00bies!!!!11

XJEDX said:
I think this post simply speaks volumes. Now I'm going to PERFECTLY puke in the toilet.

J

I'm glad to have made someone's day.

Rayt · Jan 21, 2003

What wonders me is that BioWare doesn't alter their press releases in some way, after all the bad press (well, not all, since the larger game sites gave it a big thumbs up). They know they failed with their SP campaign, why not just not mention it? Just say you got a fun multyplayer game and an engine that's easily modded (or so I've heard) and just 'forget' to mention the SP part.

I know they have bills to pay, but downright lying never did a software company any good.

axel · Jan 21, 2003

Rayt said:
I know they have bills to pay, but downright lying never did a software company any good.

Sure it did! Not every gamer checks the facts before buying a product.

Boxart slogons come to mind.

Saint_Proverbius · Jan 21, 2003

Rayt said:
What wonders me is that BioWare doesn't alter their press releases in some way, after all the bad press (well, not all, since the larger game sites gave it a big thumbs up). They know they failed with their SP campaign, why not just not mention it? Just say you got a fun multyplayer game and an engine that's easily modded (or so I've heard) and just 'forget' to mention the SP part.

The best part is that they still brag about how great the campaign story was in their interviews and dev diaries to this day. It basically goes like this:

Interviewer Joe: Tell us about the story for Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic.

Generic BioWare Guy: Well, our stories rule. Every story we make rules more than the last story, because we're just so awesome. We just keep getting more and more better at writing those stories, we rock. Nothing we ever do sucks at all, we're just fantastic, superior developers.

They not only don't acknowledge that NWN's campaign was just plain pathetic, they claim it's the best thing they've ever done. That's what makes them easy targets, their our shit doesn't stink attitude.

Rayt · Jan 21, 2003

axel said:
Rayt said:

I know they have bills to pay, but downright lying never did a software company any good.

Click to expand...

Sure it did! Not every gamer checks the facts before buying a product.

Boxart slogons come to mind.

Yeah, but then sales should crash after the first week. Look at Daikatana.

What's odd is that this didn't happpen with NWN...sure a crapload of people ordered it the first week, or pre-ordered it, but still it kept on selling enormously. While the sign of a crappy gameplay was all over the net. And friends would probably say: "Don't buy it. Really, the single player campaign stinks."

But for some reason that didn't happen.

Calis · Jan 21, 2003

Rayt said:
Look at Daikatana.

That would fit nicely in the "BS" category. Daikatana had outlived its hype well, WELL before release. After the "John Romero will own you" ad campaign (or whatever the slogan was - not sure), the stuff with Stevie Case (or whatever that bitch's name was), the insane amounts of "vaporware" awards it got in both online and paper magazines, I'd say this was an entirely different case altogether. Daikatana didn't fail because it sucked. It failed because it had outlived its own hype well, WELL before release. Oh, and because it sucked, of course.

Man, doing news for a gaming site was FUN back then.

Anyway. All I'm trying to say is: NWN was still at a high-point, hype-wise, when it was released. That'd still explain its strong sales.

Rayt · Jan 21, 2003

Calis said:
That would fit nicely in the "BS" category. Daikatana had outlived its hype well, WELL before release. After the "John Romero will own you" ad campaign (or whatever the slogan was - not sure), the stuff with Stevie Case (or whatever that bitch's name was), the insane amounts of "vaporware" awards it got in both online and paper magazines, I'd say this was an entirely different case altogether. Daikatana didn't fail because it sucked. It failed because it had outlived its own hype well, WELL before release. Oh, and because it sucked, of course.

Man, doing news for a gaming site was FUN back then.

Anyway. All I'm trying to say is: NWN was still at a high-point, hype-wise, when it was released. That'd still explain its strong sales.

I'm not sure what you mean with 'vaporware'...is it a good or a bad thing?

Btw Lasse, that add is hilarious

Azael · Jan 21, 2003

Vaporware is when a product never makes it out on the marker, simply put.

Spazmo · Jan 21, 2003

It's more when a game has been in development for years and years and all the developer will say about it is "The project is going fine."

By the way, the Godawful Daikatana demo didn't help either.

Saint_Proverbius · Jan 22, 2003

Spazmo said:
It's more when a game has been in development for years and years and all the developer will say about it is "The project is going fine."

By the way, the Godawful Daikatana demo didn't help either.

It's also that most of the team walked out on Romero and pretty much said, "This game will never happen" or some such. They got really frustrated with how poorly the whole development cycle was going, so they left in the middle of production.

Sabotai · Jan 22, 2003

Speaking of NWN fanboys and stupidity, they are already rating this game which hasn't even been released yet. At EBGames.com it's possible to preorder your copy Neverwinter Nights: Shadows of Undrentide. Additionally, you can write a preview and rate the upcoming title! NWN SoU receives a healthy 4 start out of five. How about that. I won't even try to rate the stupidity of rating an unreleased software title (not to mention "providing the option to write and rate a preview by EBGames").

Person A: "I really liked driving that car. The accelleration is awesome and it easily handles the most difficult corners.....It's definately worth the money"

Person B: "But the car hasn't even been produces yet, how do you know all this"

Person A: "Well, the company producing the car showed me some pictures what the car would look like and said the driving would be excellent"

Person A: "..."

Trying to insert link now (havn't done this before so hope it works)

http://www.ebgames.com/ebx/editorial/reviews/reviews.asp?pf_id=232275&popf_id=232275
[/url]

Rayt · Jan 22, 2003

Sabotai said:
Trying to insert link now (havn't done this before so hope it works)

http://www.ebgames.com/ebx/editorial/reviews/reviews.asp?pf_id=232275&popf_id=232275
[/url]

Even if theres not a phenomenal game included, there're bound to be 10 to replace it being made by someone

Haha, they already assume the epxansion is going to suck. But that doesn't seem matter since the modules are going to kick ass.

HanoverF · Jan 22, 2003

I like how the only person to give it one star, did so because there's "absolutely ZERO multiplayer depth"

I blame the shallow gene pool of the people playing online and giving this 5 stars sight unseen for the lack of depth

Zogg · Jan 22, 2003

kudos to St. Prov for using "Exhibit A" against the idiot NWN fanboys, but part of me also wonders how long one can engage in verbal melee with these guys. It may just be me, but I think a healthy majority of hard-core CRPG gamers think NWN sucked (I was one of the lucky ones that did not buy the game - I prefer party-based RPGs as opposed to solo RPGs. I also don't give a shit for multiplayer RPGs). Unfortunately there will probably continue to be expansions and gamer-made mods that might actually turn NWN into a halfway decent game that resembles Frankenstein if anything else. And there will always be a fanbase for the game.

So while I think it is understandable that you would offer valid justification for why YOU think NWN sucks and how Bio both deceived the public and gave its staff congratulatory verbal blowjobs in the press, I really doubt you are going to make any progress with the fanboys - they will always have bogus excuses and try to make you look like the naive ignoramus that doesn't understand the "greater purpose" of NWN.

I personally think it's time to retire the arguments about the suckage of NWN - it's a new year, and it's time to bitch and argue about new games (assuming we ever get any!).

Spazmo · Jan 22, 2003

Zogg--you're quite right. That's why much of RPGCodex has moved on to reaming Knights of the Old Republic.

Saint_Proverbius · Jan 22, 2003

Spazmo said:
Zogg--you're quite right. That's why much of RPGCodex has moved on to reaming Knights of the Old Republic.

And Witch's Wake.. And we're waiting to ream the expansion packs!

Seriously though, I've been talking to some people with shareware CRPGs in the works lately. There are some interesting shareware CRPGs coming up here this year, which is nice considering I think shareware CRPGs tend to have better CRPG mechanics these days than many of the commercial products.

I've turned down three offers for content from publishers recently because I didn't think they were good CRPGs, or they were RTS games with "RPG elements" as well. It's kind of interesting to be approached by publishers, and asked if you'll cover something and telling them you won't because you don't feel it fits what your site is all about.

However, I have gotten contacted by a few with decent stuff lately, so we'll see where that goes as well.

Vault Dweller · Jan 22, 2003

Saint_Proverbius said:
Seriously though, I've been talking to some people with shareware CRPGs in the works lately. There are some interesting shareware CRPGs coming up here this year,

Care to share? A preview of upcoming "interesting shareware CRPGs" would be nice. Especially on this site.

Saint_Proverbius · Jan 22, 2003

I can't talk about them yet, probably February, but interviews and other content have been arranged.

axel · Jan 22, 2003

Saint_Proverbius said:
I've turned down three offers for content from publishers recently because I didn't think they were good CRPGs

Hehe I hope you didn't make them cry.

c.s.i.p.rpg fun with NWN excusists

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