Parabalus
Arcane
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2015
- Messages
- 17,459
Stooping to shitposting instead of arguments. The end is near.
You started with the shitflinging in your last reply, don't see why it's bothering you now.
Weren't you in prison for a while? You should be used to it.
Reading comprehension: Failed. Spelling it out for you - each of these 6 points I made proves that the Attack rolls are calculated differently. Each of these 6 points proves that your statement "it's calculated the same way" is wrong. Attack resolution in PoE is not, repeat - not, calculated the same as in AD&D2.
Yes, they are. In both games you throw a dice and add ACC-DEF / AC-ThAC0, if greater than 15/1, good stuff happens.
Reading comprehension: Failed. I'm not talking about enemy THAC0 or AC. I am saying that Deflection and Accuracy are raising to much greater heights in PoE than the depths to which THAC0 and AC are falling in AD&D2. From this follows that individual bonus points you get during character generation in PoE are worth less, as the game progresses, than individual bonus points are worth in AD&D2.1. No, enemy thAC0 and AC is lowered arbitrarily so that they remain a challenge as you level up, that's much surely more transparent.
(AC - ThAC0)2. It's "THAC0 - AC".You are trying to tell me that AC - THAC0 is the same as THAC0 - AC? 8 (THAC0) - 4 (AC) = 4 (AC) - 8 (THAC0)? How do you even manage when you go to the local shop?2. I'm not certain how old you are, but if you started grade school you'd know that signs flip when you move over the equal sign. Read what I wrote and http://baldursgate.wikia.com/wiki/THAC0 carefully, I'm sure you'll get it eventually.
It's funny to be getting patronizing remarks on maths ability from someone who is on record failing both at basic arithmetic and probability.
You are deliberately misquoting what I originally wrote:
- It's calculated the same way. For PoE roll d100 and add it to (ACC-DEF), good stuff if >15. For IE roll d20 and add it to (AC - ThAC0) , hit if > 1
- Min d20 roll to land hit = (attacker's THAC0) - (target's effective AC + target's AC modifier)
- (Attacker's roll) + [(target's AC modifier) - (attacker's THAC0)] = result
The keywords for weapon speed are useless. If you want to calculate DPS you need the values behind those keywords, and these are not displayed anywhere. I doubt anyone knows them with certainty.You have no fucking idea what you are talking about. Which weapons belong to which speed classes IS documented, it's in the tooltip.
Failing at probability once again. Compare hit for hit if you are getting confused. You are trying to argue that 3% of 10 damage is more than 3% of 20 damage of a higher base-damage weapon. At least you acknowledge with half mouth that DPS is not ascertainable.You don't need a DPS sim to realise might doesn't favour higher base damage weapons.
You don't have to calculate the DPS to understand that for two weapons with the same DPS output, the one which strikes more benefits more from MIG if DR is present.
Depends on how many times I succeed in hitting, and what weapon I am using.If you swing 4 times in a round, how many times would you apply STR bonus to damage?
For advanced users, if you swing 4 times in a round with a 50% CtH, how much added damage would you expect with 18/91 strength compared to 9 strength?
You surely must be trolling.
The damage bonus from strength is the same regardless of the weapon, this isn't 3.5 where there is a 1.5 modifier for 2h weapons. You yourself wrote this several times.
How do you get static total damage on weapons which have different base damage? Rhetorical question. I see you are getting it by manipulating the number of hits, but you can't see the fault in your logic here.The factor which was kept static is total damage pre DR. You didn't, that's why you got wildly wrong conclusions.
In PoE weapons have different recovery speeds. Try picturing it like this, in IE terms:
You have 9 STR, which gives you +0 static bonus damage per hit.
You have an enchanted dagger in Bg2 which does 1d4+1 with 2 APR. This dagger strikes twice per round, for an expected damage value of 2x(2.5+1)=6 damage per round.
You have a magic 2h sword which does 1d12+1 with 1 APR. It strikes once per round for EV 1x(7.5+1)=8.5
So, the sword wins. Now imagine you have 19 STR, for +7 static bonus damage per hit:
The dagger will do 2x(2.5+1+7)=21
The sword will do 1x(7.5+1+7)=15.5
Weapons with different APR are rare in IE, but they are the baseline of PoE's system, but they all have the same inherit DPS.
However, before DR, MIG will increase the total damage equally. With DR, the relative increase is bigger in the one with more strikes, similar to the above example, since DR is static.
I have faith you will realise that taking into account e.g. a CtH of 50% cuts both expected values equally.
Me, no. But they'd love your type. By now you have tried to convince me, and everyone else, that:Aha, you seem to be half-admitting your own error. If we are going with the same hit probability, I'd have to take a 50% chance on each of the dagger's 10 hits, and on each of the other weapon's 2 hits, and then, guess which weapon is more probable to score all it's hits Hint, the one that exposes itself to risk fewer times. Friendly advice, stay away from casinos :DThis is why it only makes sense to talk about expected damage when you are doing comparisons. If you give the above example a 50% chance to hit for both weapons, expected total damage would be same for both weapons, but BIG ONE would have bigger variance - however this has nothing to do with value of might unless you add complexity (does my big hit now kill the target faster, ie. overkill to save time for instance).
Read the bolded part you quoted a few times.
I hope you don't stay away from casinos, I'm sure they'd love you there.
1. (3% of X) > (3% of Y) where X < Y
2. X - Y = Y - X where Y != X, X > 0, and Y > 0
3. 10 coin tosses are as probable to give you 10 successive tails, as 2 coin tosses are probable to give you 2 successive tails.
I also have quotes of your posts to provide examples for each of these faulty assertions.
1. You don't understand that fast weapons suffer from DR more than slow ones
2. You're imagining things, read 2nd quote block with wiki
3. If you have 50% CtH and strike 5 times for 5 damage or once for 25 damage, the expected value both times is 12.5, the second has higher variance, this I wrote. No idea where you are getting your coins from. Amusingly you praise higher variance as a good thing.
So, we make up the data in order to fit our assertion better. There is no such example in all the IE games, except maybe at the end of ToB.1. I'd like it noted that 25 Dexterity is a pretty cooked-up example for AD&D2.25 dexterity gives -6AC, 10 is neutral starting point (both IE [this is favorable to IE] and PoE) , so DEX gives a linearized -0.4 AC per point. Those -0.4 AC gives the enemy -2% CtH. One point of resolve in PoE gives the enemy -1% CtH. So strictly for AC purposes, DEX is about twice as good as RES per point.
2. 10 is not a neutral starting point, 8 is in AD&D2.
3. No one in an AD&D2-based game cares what's the linearized AC gain, because it's gained by the whole points. And IMO, that is much for the better.
4. Point 3. makes the rest of the calculations irrelevant to a player.
1. That makes the comparison more tilted towards PoE
2. read 1. 8-20 makes it -0.33 per point.
What assertion? That DEX gives more physical eHP than RES? I never claimed RES is better, I clearly said as much.
Strawman, or Reading comprehension: Failed.3. If you are making a comparison between system, you need comparable units.
4. None of this is relevant to players.
At this point am almost positive you do not understand a significant part of what you read. I am not comparing between systems. What I am arguing is that within the same system one point of one Attribute is more valuable than one point in another Attribute is valuable in another system. I think everyone has understood this by now, except you.
The initial reason I replied to you is because you were interested in per point comparison of attributes between IE and PoE. To compare them, you convert them to similar units, by the above DEX is roughly twice as good per point as RES for physical eHP.
So, when you really stretch it, you can reach conditions where for one specific kit for one specific class, with specific equpment, you get a comparable decrease of the significance of an Attribute bonus, and then you compare that with a rule that applies to each class in PoE? You seriously propose this comparison as proof of your statement that deflection bonus from Resolve is equally significant as AC bonus from Dexterity?Of course it does, why wouldn't it?They do change, but does your +3 Hit Probability Adjustment (only attainable in an extreme case of warrior class with 18/00 Strength) ever become one 20th, or even less, as a contribution to your THAC0? That's what I meant, and said three times now.This is just wrong. Do enemy ThAC0 values not increase between a goblin's whatever and Firkraag's -7?
They are relevant in both games, with the caveat that it's much easier to cap out in IE.
When thAC0 is -10 thanks to potion of power, bless, chant, -5 weapons, -5 gauntles, -5 kensai, lower base thAC0(!!!) and whatever other stuff you muster, the value of that -3 decreases. What confuses you here?
I have no idea how you connected any of those statements to RES <--> DEX, when you yourself claim you are not comparing between systems.
You said
They do change, but does your +3 Hit Probability Adjustment (only attainable in an extreme case of warrior class with 18/00 Strength) ever become one 20th, or even less, as a contribution to your THAC0? That's what I meant, and said three times now.
+3 hit costs is 15 attribute points, from 8 (you yourself said this is the starting point) to 18/00 and it gives you 15% to hit. 15 PER gives you 15 ACC.
The broader answer is that the thAC0 from base strength is IE is less significant than +ACC from PER, because in IE enemy DEF (AC) is both less competitive (caps out at -16, which is thAC0 attainable in SoA) and your sources of ACC (-thAC0) are more numerous.
You can have 18/00 Strength on a small number of classes and after a good amount of time spent rerolling, so no, I'm not joking. You are welcome to explain why I would be joking, and why something attainable for a small number of AD&D2 classes can be compared to bonuses attainable by every class in PoE.Extreme case of 18/00 strength? Surely you're joking.
We are talking (or at least I am) about the games where it is readily available.
This is pretty tangential though, as the discussion is (was) about the value of attributes at CC - but the fact is that the impact of your choice is diminished in IE because of the easier access to stat improvement.
As I already wrote to correct myself: Actually, no. The Strength bonus to damage doesn't scale with weapon damage in the way that the Mighht bonus to damage scales with weapon damage. You are wrong on that account as well.[/QUOTE]Ok, if by "eHP" you mean armor, then we are in agreement.Strength is better than MIG per point for melee damage, I never claimed otherwise (says as much in the first post), since it's basically MIG+PER (+damage/-thAC0) rolled into one, DEX gives you more physical eHP than resolve.
You have trouble coming to terms with the fact that 10x(10*1.3) is the same as 2x(50*1.3).
Anyway, this is all good fun, but it has nothing really to do with the initial question anymore, which was somewhat related to Deadfire. If you really want to continue this I suggest our benevolent overlord splits or retardos this.
They were never completely removed. I am now unsure about the same thing as you.Grazes exist, but I'm not sure if it's universal or only a few abilities allow you to graze.
http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...-coming-april-3rd.119184/page-50#post-5403065
Did he every try leaving grazes for damage but removing it from status effects?