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Decline Game Subscription Services: The End of Gaming?

mediocrepoet

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Jinn's comment about MS Game Pass in the Lies of P thread sort of struck a chord with me, in that it strikes me this ship has already sailed.

Oh, I understand the appeal well enough. I just won't have any part of it, whether for free or for a dollar. They are actively attempting to strip any sense of ownership of games from the consumer, which is just absolutely disgusting, dystopian ass shit.

"Ownership" of a game in the sense of control of it and freedom of access to it hasn't existed in years for the PC space. A lot of years. Ironically, the main place you can still own most games in the traditional sense is on consoles because they still have discs and some of those discs don't require any online access to run (though that's changing) and in a few cases (generally Nintendo titles), they'll function relatively well with no Day 1 patch or any other crap required. However, I'm really only concerned with the PC space in my thoughts below because consoles are following the same trend, except being phased out in favour of other devices like phones.

Even when physical media was still a thing, when discs had to phone home for authorization with some shitty DRM schemes that locked people with valid keys and discs out of their games due to servers being taken offline, or lack of internet, etc. I have a bunch of game boxes on my shelves still containing discs that are basically just coasters these days. I haul them around because I like the boxes still on some level, but I may end up getting rid of them like I have much of my other gaming memorabilia simply because I tire of moving them around and many of them are essentially worthless now other than to collectors.

Subscription services offer choices, for instance, if you have kids who don't know what they like, you can offer a library of whatever to them to tool around with without having to pony up for a full game price for something that's either dog shit, or holds their attention for all of half an hour before they get bored. They also allow you to try things whether there's a demo or not, to see if they're something you like. And you don't have to haul around a bunch of shit, other than whatever hardware you have (and with Cloud services, not even much of that), so it's quite convenient.

It strikes me that the more portable systems and services become with internet access becoming more prevalent and more of a selling feature for many things, e.g. office files, etc. the more that these services will continue to grow and the idea of "owning a game" will become even more archaic.

Years ago, I still put in floppy drives for every computer I owned, so I could reinstall classics like the Quest for Glory series, X-Com, etc. These days, most of my computers don't have any drives at all, so even if my CDs weren't useless, I'd have to build up another system from my spare parts to use them anyway, or get an external drive. I don't pretend that I won't watch a ton of wasted money go up in flames if Steam goes tits up tomorrow, or whatever other site you prefer, and I think the time will come where you may want to see how many of your GOG installers can be held on whatever storage drives you have available and whether they continue to work longer term once that service goes dark.

So anyway, subscription services. Are these the future? A fad? The destruction of gaming as we know it? What do you think?
 

Maxie

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obsessing over game ownership is hoarder attitude, precisely because it's so impractical to use analog media, and even Nintendo still puts so much effort into still producing cartridges for anti-piracy reasons only - it's still preferable to just grab a Switch than try to emulate it, it's not like it doesn't have an online store anyway
if anything, I play far more games than I did back in the day, simply because I have access to more stuff - as a younger man, I couldn't afford physical releases of the classics, nor did I have a decent PC to run them. nowadays, they're a click away and run on a toaster.
as such, I'm a beneficiary of the current model and have no reason whatsoever to contest it. even if Gabe gets shot tomorrow and all of 'my' Steam games disappear, it's not like they will steal my gaming experience from me.
 

mediocrepoet

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Having a bit of an actual hoarder mentality myself, I have been trying to accumulate less stuff lately and to get rid of a lot of what I have that is just taking up space. But I agree, I spend more than I should on gaming, have good hardware and such and a ridiculous backlog, because it's so convenient to just "buy" titles on whatever store front and I don't play anywhere near all of them, nevermind complete them, though I'm trying to change that. I suspect a subscription service, or services will likely end up making me spend less on gaming if I ever fully switched over to them.

It's not clear to me that this would be a long term benefit though. I think it was some Codexer who said (sorry for not giving credit, I have no idea where I read this, but it wasn't mine) that gaming subscriptions will end up being like cable TV subscriptions, where there's a million things to check out, but nothing on. So you flip flip flip and are just bored anyway.

Sometimes too many options are worse than only a few, whether due to lack of quality, or simply choice paralysis.
 

Lord of Riva

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I pretend it's a rental and play games I would have not played otherwise, like Starfield (70 bucks as if).

I will not be forced into a subscription for games I actually want, they can fuck right off.

We still have based devs, GoG and DRM free games and Nintendo with their cartridge based games.
 

Jinn

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Here's the thing. I resisted the Steam pull as long as I could. I bought games that I believed in at physical game stores as long as I possibly could. Sadly I was beaten down and it became apparent that I would have to digitally access any physically purchased item I got. It was a great blow, and a major contributor to my repulsion to gaming. It ultimately - in part - led to me abandoning gaming for a solid 3 years. When I returned to gaming, I had to accept what a boon to PC gaming in general Steam had been. People were releasing games I never thought imaginable, and people were playing them. I had to alter my perception a bit at that point, and accept digital distribution as a positive thing in the gaming landscape. I didn't like it in concept, but it seemed to be the only way. At least those games in your Steam account were ostensibly yours forever.

Fast-forward today. I've been somewhat happily going along, supporting the games that I enjoy on a platform that seems to be the only rational option. Then GAME STREAMING happens. It's a furthering of the things I didn't like about Steam in the first place. It's basically encouraging people to relinquish their rights to ownership after solid money has been paid. This isn't a rental service at this point. It's a way to make sure that your consumers are playing exactly what they are told to at any given time. And they shouldn't have any right to play that game in the future if a subscription fee isn't being paid. This is heinous, and should be fought against in any way. The apathy I've witnessed in regards to this spells a doom on our hobby that is only a few years away. Sadly, I'm made to be a defender of one of the things I detested the most in its outset: Steam.

Do not subscribe to these streaming services. Do not even consider it for a moment. Maybe we'll eek out a few more years of actually somewhat owning the games we want to support. Don't subscribe for free, don't subscribe for a dollar. Don't ever do it. If you want to buy games, do it on GoG first of all, then Steam secondarily. This is all garbage, and it'll probably one day force me to abandon modern gaming forever, sadly.
 
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mediocrepoet

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Jinn, that's a pretty purist hardline. I can understand some of where you're coming from, but everything changes. More specifically though:

It's basically encouraging people to relinquish their rights to ownership after solid money has been paid. This isn't a rental service at this point.

Well, functionally it's very similar to a rental service. You pay a nominal fee for temporary access to something you're at least somewhat interested in and then when you don't want to pay for it anymore, you lose that access. Did you never rent games as a kid? Or tapes? Or anything?

Hell, it's basically a more convenient version of those old US services like original Netflix or Gamefly where they'd mail DVDs around for movies and games for a nominal fee. That you pay monthly instead of per download is actually a net benefit to most consumers (i.e. anyone who's likely to play more than one thing in a month that's worth more than like $5).

It's a way to make sure that your consumers are playing exactly what they are told to at any given time.

I guess? That's too "it wuz aliens" for me. Pretty sure no CEOs of anything or their shareholders care what you play, so there's no agenda beyond general capitalism.

And they shouldn't have any right to play that game in the future if a subscription fee isn't being paid. This is heinous, and should be fought against in any way. The apathy I've witnessed in regards to this spells a doom on our hobby that is only a few years away. Sadly, I'm made to be a defender of one of the things I detested the most in its outset: Steam.

Sure, some games will go away. Thing is, we already see that. Physical editions wear out. Games aren't being preserved, servers go down, etc. Time marches on and eventually we'll die, and none of my kids care what Icewind Dale is. Their kids will care even less. It's the way of things.

Further, I don't know how much of an actual problem it is. I have literally never looked back and said, you know what? I wish I could play my old shit from the Intellivision. Or Atari 2600. Etc. Occasionally I'll think about some C64 game, but realistically I'm not missing all that much and I don't have enough time to pursue all of my interests as it is, much less after having an unlimited backlog through the entire history of gaming.
 

Maxie

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Do not subscribe to these streaming services. Do not even consider it for a moment. Maybe we'll eek out a few more years of actually somewhat owning the games we want to support. Don't subscribe for free, don't subscribe for a dollar. Don't ever do it. If you want to buy games, do it on GoG first of all, then Steam secondarily. This is all garbage, and it'll probably one day force me to abandon modern gaming forever, sadly.
you've been struggling really hard to hide your crazy
 

Lord of Riva

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Do not subscribe to these streaming services. Do not even consider it for a moment. Maybe we'll eek out a few more years of actually somewhat owning the games we want to support. Don't subscribe for free, don't subscribe for a dollar. Don't ever do it. If you want to buy games, do it on GoG first of all, then Steam secondarily. This is all garbage, and it'll probably one day force me to abandon modern gaming forever, sadly.
you've been struggling really hard to hide your crazy

while you manage to always show it all your posts. Impressive.
 

Jinn

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Well, functionally it's very similar to a rental service. You pay a nominal fee for temporary access to something you're at least somewhat interested in and then when you don't want to pay for it anymore, you lose that access. Did you never rent games as a kid? Or tapes? Or anything?

Hell, it's basically a more convenient version of those old US services like original Netflix or Gamefly where they'd mail DVDs around for movies and games for a nominal fee. That you pay monthly instead of per download is actually a net benefit to most consumers (i.e. anyone who's likely to play more than one thing in a month that's worth more than like $5).
Except its rental services becoming the norm. When I was a kid going to Blockbuster to try out a game or two, it was definitely in mind to somehow acquire that cartridge a later date if I really loved it. Something that I could truly have, to play forever without erasing some random person's saved game in order to do so. It was a great experience, but of course I would have rather to have owned the game that I came to love.
I guess? That's too "it wuz aliens" for me. Pretty sure no CEOs of anything or their shareholders care what you play, so there's no agenda beyond general capitalism.
How is that conspiracy theorist in the least? "Here's the games we have on offer, if you don't like them, then fuck off." You can't seriously tell me that Microsoft is a corporation that cares about their consumer's choice? In most cases we have none. That's why we all have to boot up a Windows version of some sort to play most PC games on the market.
Sure, some games will go away. Thing is, we already see that. Physical editions wear out. Games aren't being preserved, servers go down, etc. Time marches on and eventually we'll die, and none of my kids care what Icewind Dale is. Their kids will care even less. It's the way of things.
This should be something that we should all be concerned about. GoG already addresses this for the most part, by having the source codes of all games available in their base downloads for all games.
 

Maxie

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Do not subscribe to these streaming services. Do not even consider it for a moment. Maybe we'll eek out a few more years of actually somewhat owning the games we want to support. Don't subscribe for free, don't subscribe for a dollar. Don't ever do it. If you want to buy games, do it on GoG first of all, then Steam secondarily. This is all garbage, and it'll probably one day force me to abandon modern gaming forever, sadly.
you've been struggling really hard to hide your crazy

while you manage to always show it all your posts. Impressive.
calm down and smell the coffee. it's a banality on par of "i wish it was nice" to claim it'd be preferable to have at least nominal ownership over digital content - and Steam works this way still. it's not a rental, it's not a limited time offer, it stays on your account. consequently, you pay full price for those games.

streaming services usually have you pay a monthly fee for a selection of games, which sometimes rotates. it's obviously a deal which appeals to many. if it doesn't appeal to you, you're not the target. contrary to the besieged mentality of Jinn, there are millions of people who are not the target - but are still paying customers. Steam will not turn into a streaming service.

it's for casuals who'd like to check a new game every other week, or professional streamers who will treat it the same way artists treat a Photoshop licence. if you think it will impact you, touch grass, really.
 

mediocrepoet

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Well, functionally it's very similar to a rental service. You pay a nominal fee for temporary access to something you're at least somewhat interested in and then when you don't want to pay for it anymore, you lose that access. Did you never rent games as a kid? Or tapes? Or anything?

Hell, it's basically a more convenient version of those old US services like original Netflix or Gamefly where they'd mail DVDs around for movies and games for a nominal fee. That you pay monthly instead of per download is actually a net benefit to most consumers (i.e. anyone who's likely to play more than one thing in a month that's worth more than like $5).
Except its rental services becoming the norm. When I was a kid going to Blockbuster to try out a game or two, it was definitely in mind to somehow acquire that cartridge a later date if I really loved it. Something that I could truly have, to play forever without erasing some random person's saved game in order to do so. It was a great experience, but of course I would have rather to have owned the game that I came to love.

Times change and sometimes are very different. Years ago, one of the (adult) kids was talking to me about porn due to the newfound freedom of being off on her own. I asked whether she thought her grandmother would approve of this behaviour. She said, probably, she probably looked at it too when she was the same age. I asked how she thought her grandmother would have done that. Kid (idiot) replied that her grandmother probably also used her phone to look at porn when she was a young woman. I told her I could guarantee that that did not happen.

Not telling you to like it, just that. Eh. It's the way of things. Might as well get outraged that we don't get to hear the sweet sound of dial up modems handshaking anymore and some day no one alive will have any idea what that sounded like.

I guess? That's too "it wuz aliens" for me. Pretty sure no CEOs of anything or their shareholders care what you play, so there's no agenda beyond general capitalism.
How is that conspiracy theorist in the least? "Here's the games we have on offer, if you don't like them, then fuck off." You can't seriously tell me that Microsoft is a corporation that cares about their consumer's choice? In most cases we have none. That's why we all have to boot up a Windows version of some sort to play most PC games on the market.

Mm, it's the implication of what you said, though it may have been unintended. Here's what you actually said:
It's a way to make sure that your consumers are playing exactly what they are told to at any given time.

So you seemed to be that you were upset that some sort of faceless "The Man" is telling you what to do. Which as I say, they don't care, they just want your money, so they'll try to put something on there to keep you paying for a subscription, whether or not you use it.

Your revised, more moderate formulation of the problem is akin to being upset that you can't find a local store to buy ink wells and quill pens in any longer because no one's really wanted them since 1853. Yes, being in a niche market can suck. I still think you're exaggerating the issue because where there's sufficient demand, there will be an incentive to provide the service and online services can (theoretically) provide service worldwide. YMMV

Sure, some games will go away. Thing is, we already see that. Physical editions wear out. Games aren't being preserved, servers go down, etc. Time marches on and eventually we'll die, and none of my kids care what Icewind Dale is. Their kids will care even less. It's the way of things.
This should be something that we should all be concerned about. GoG already addresses this for the most part, by having the source codes of all games available in their base downloads for all games.
I'm not because our demographic will be unable to change this course on its own unless someone with the drive to try and make it feasible licenses some sort of repository to ensure sales remain indefinitely, etc. GOG is likely to go out of business at some point unless their fortunes change, and Steam will likely change fairly radically once Gaben (PBUH) passes away.

I think our time on Earth is finite, and so are most of the things we hold dear, so it's best to simply enjoy what you have while you have it and enjoy something else if everything slips away and you need to rebuild. Gaming can be an important hobby, it is to me, and I've been doing it since I was a small child, but there are other things and almost all of them are more important in the grand scheme of things. IMO of course.
 

Lord of Riva

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I currently fail to see the reason for this exploding debate.

I really do not think Jinns post warrants this reaction (I even thought you were just shitposting maxie, which was the reason for my response).
Being worried about such developments and change (for the worse) does not strike me as extreme at all, he just does not share the optimism of you guys and I think that is fair.

I'm not that worried in any ways, these debates are mostly centered around commercial mainstream gaming, which I tend to ignore more often than not in any case, if it helps Jinn there are so many games still around, developed the last 50 years that you will be able to play your owned games and Piracy will always exist as well.

mediocrepoet And you have no excuse not to show your children (if you have them) what Icewind dale is (this is meant jokingly). You will not be able to not show your kids you like video-games if you do enjoy them, why not show them what you enjoyed in the past?

My son loves old and new games alike and he is enthusiastic about the CRPG book, it's like learning history why would you not show him these things.
 

mediocrepoet

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mediocrepoet And you have no excuse not to show your children (if you have them) what Icewind dale is (this is meant jokingly). You will not be able to not show your kids you like video-games if you do enjoy them, why not show them what you enjoyed in the past?
Did. They don't care. :lol:

The youngest is 22 now and has a toddler. He super doesn't care now. More interested in making a living and a life and maybe playing PS5 when he has a chance. As it should be, really.
 

mediocrepoet

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I just wanted to address this part separately:

I currently fail to see the reason for this exploding debate.

"Exploding debate"? I have to admit, I really don't understand how you view things. :lol:

Here I was raising an interesting concern raised by a poster I like that had nothing to do with the thread it was made in, to see what others also thought. So uh... carry on good knight.

I really do not think Jinns post warrants this reaction ...

Eh, ok. I mean. I have no idea what you're reacting to, everything in here is pretty tame by internet, nevermind Codex standards, imo.
 

Maxie

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I currently fail to see the reason for this exploding debate.

I really do not think Jinns post warrants this reaction (I even thought you were just shitposting maxie, which was the reason for my response).
Being worried about such developments and change (for the worse) does not strike me as extreme at all, he just does not share the optimism of you guys and I think that is fair.

I'm not that worried in any ways, these debates are mostly centered around commercial mainstream gaming, which I tend to ignore more often than not in any case, if it helps Jinn there are so many games still around, developed the last 50 years that you will be able to play your owned games and Piracy will always exist as well.

mediocrepoet And you have no excuse not to show your children (if you have them) what Icewind dale is (this is meant jokingly). You will not be able to not show your kids you like video-games if you do enjoy them, why not show them what you enjoyed in the past?

My son loves old and new games alike and he is enthusiastic about the CRPG book, it's like learning history why would you not show him these things.
the point is, we've nothing to show that would warrant anything but positive outlook. it's not a Vimm's Lair situation where you need to archive all that cartridge- and disk-based stuff so that people could eventually emulate it regardless of some ridiculous re-releases, most Windows 95 games run on W10/11 with minimal fuss involved, natively.
 

Lord of Riva

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"Exploding discussion" is pointing towards how expansive it is, not what is written.

For some reasons Jinns post lead to a pretty in depth debate about conspiracy theories and in the case of maxie "craziness".

I'm just irritated why that happened, I thought all posts thus far were well grounded at this point and did not warrant much of an explanation. Please, discuss. it was not meant to stiffle the exchange.
 

Lord of Riva

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the point is, we've nothing to show that would warrant anything but positive outlook. it's not a Vimm's Lair situation where you need to archive all that cartridge- and disk-based stuff so that people could eventually emulate it regardless of some ridiculous re-releases, most Windows 95 games run on W10/11 with minimal fuss involved, natively.

I agree with you, I am fairly optimistic as well.
 

mediocrepoet

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"Exploding discussion" is pointing towards how expansive it is, not what is written.

For some reasons Jinns post lead to a pretty in depth debate about conspiracy theories and in the case of maxie "craziness".

I'm just irritated why that happened, I thought all posts thus far were well grounded at this point and did not warrant much of an explanation. Please, discuss. it was not meant to stiffle the exchange.
Oh I see. Thanks for the clarification.

No, the conspiracy theory stuff was just that one line. As I mentioned, I'm not even sure the... flavour that it seemed to have to me was intended. Well, to me of course. I can't speak for Maxie. I'm not even sure Maxie speaks for Maxie sometimes. :lol:
 

Maxie

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"Exploding discussion" is pointing towards how expansive it is, not what is written.

For some reasons Jinns post lead to a pretty in depth debate about conspiracy theories and in the case of maxie "craziness".

I'm just irritated why that happened, I thought all posts thus far were well grounded at this point and did not warrant much of an explanation. Please, discuss. it was not meant to stiffle the exchange.
Oh I see. Thanks for the clarification.

No, the conspiracy theory stuff was just that one line. As I mentioned, I'm not even sure the... flavour that it seemed to have to me was intended. Well, to me of course. I can't speak for Maxie. I'm not even sure Maxie speaks for Maxie sometimes. :lol:
it's a communal account of the intelligence community of CIA, and as such is the exact opposite of an alt.
 

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Jinn's comment about MS Game Pass in the Lies of P thread sort of struck a chord with me, in that it strikes me this ship has already sailed.

Oh, I understand the appeal well enough. I just won't have any part of it, whether for free or for a dollar. They are actively attempting to strip any sense of ownership of games from the consumer, which is just absolutely disgusting, dystopian ass shit.

"Ownership" of a game in the sense of control of it and freedom of access to it hasn't existed in years for the PC space. A lot of years. Ironically, the main place you can still own most games in the traditional sense is on consoles because they still have discs and some of those discs don't require any online access to run (though that's changing) and in a few cases (generally Nintendo titles), they'll function relatively well with no Day 1 patch or any other crap required. However, I'm really only concerned with the PC space in my thoughts below because consoles are following the same trend, except being phased out in favour of other devices like phones.
Sony and Nintendo spend huge amounts of money to make sure that you won't own the hardware - and these costs are included in price of console. The only redeeming factor is that they are incompetent - and PSP or Vita bought for the fraction of original price near the end of their commercial life - can be easily hacked to give the user root access - therefore taking over ownership of the device - to run e.g. ScummVM or ports of PC games.

The idea that you give up ownership of hardware - to have ownership of games - already backfired.

Following Switch titles are streamed from the Cloud:
  • Aliens: Fireteam Elite
  • Assassin’s Creed: Odyssey
  • Phantasy Star Online 2 / New Genesis
  • Control Ultimate Edition
  • Hitman 3 - Cloud Version
  • A Plague Tale: Innocence
  • The Forgotten City
  • Marvel's Guardians of the Galaxy
  • Kingdom Hearts - HD 1.5 + 2.5 ReMix
  • Kingdom Hearts HD 2.8 Final Chapter Prologue
  • Kingdom Hearts III
  • Edge of Eternity
  • Thymesia
  • Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous
  • A Plague Tale: Requiem
  • Resident Evil Village
  • Resident Evil 7: Biohazard
  • Resident Evil 2
  • Resident Evil 3
  • Dying Light 2: Stay Human
  • The Medium
The list will only grow - because cheap Tegra chip installed in Switch cannot really run games from 2023.

My new notebook came with 1 month free Xbox Ultimate Pass - and I just uninstalled it instantly.

However - I understand the appeal of Game Pass for parents of younger kids. Instead of giving the kids money or buying them games - they will play whatever Microsoft was able to license for cheap - and they will play the same things as their friends at school - because other parents are equally lazy. And they'll have new games to play each month - without asking parents for 70$ (+microtransactions) to spend on something that may be total crap sold to them by deceiving marketing campaign.
 

Hobknobling

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Regarding the older debate between physical distribution and digital distribution: I don't see a big difference in having the files on a disc or having the files on a hard drive. In many ways, the physically distributed versions were much more fragile and perishable goods. Not to mention that you were subject to whims of some local shithead retailer or a post catalogue at best. I do not miss physical games as long as I can have files in my hard drive.

However, subscription services are total cancer and everyone who gives Microsoft money should go fuck themselves.
 

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Regarding the older debate between physical distribution and digital distribution: I don't see a big difference in having the files on a disc or having the files on a hard drive. In many ways, the physically distributed versions were much more fragile and perishable goods. Not to mention that you were subject to whims of some local shithead retailer or a post catalogue at best. I do not miss physical games as long as I can have files in my hard drive.

However, subscription services are total cancer and everyone who gives Microsoft money should go fuck themselves.
Microsoft is a Fortune 500 corporation, it has no reason whatsoever to give a crap, it can fund any product with another product. Conversely, it should be held to the highest industry standards, because it simply can afford the best there is. It's a peculiar situation now, isn't it?
 

DemonKing

Arcane
Joined
Dec 5, 2003
Messages
6,089
I quite like Gamepass - let's you try out things you're not sure are worth paying full price for (hello Starfield) and as others have said is great for families with kids and giving you access to titles you might not have otherwise tried. You can still buy games outright if you want.

I love physical media as much as the next guy but as a collector I already have too much stuff lying around so I really don't need any more discs (or even worse, DVD cases that contain nothing but a code). I've actually been converting a lot of my old DVDs/Blu Rays to digital versions when on sale from Apple and giving the discs away - you can still download the titles and save them on a NAS if you want plus you get the bonus of your copy automatically upgrading if a better version is released (eg HD to 4K).
 
Joined
Mar 3, 2018
Messages
5,920
Do not subscribe to these streaming services. Do not even consider it for a moment. Maybe we'll eek out a few more years of actually somewhat owning the games we want to support. Don't subscribe for free, don't subscribe for a dollar. Don't ever do it. If you want to buy games, do it on GoG first of all, then Steam secondarily. This is all garbage, and it'll probably one day force me to abandon modern gaming forever, sadly.
I don't remember what showcase or speech it was but, I faintly remember some Microsoft or xbox walking PR skinsuit talk about how great the Gamepass is going to be because it will give them more access to developing markets like India. We might just be stuck with this.
 

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