Harebrained Schemes General Discussion Thread

[Cael]

sorry not aware of who you're raging over on twitter today

Funny way of admitting you were wrong you got there. I thought it was pretty well-known that HBS went woke without Paradox ever needing to interfere. Sad to see some Weissmann cocksuckers still refusing to admit to it.

You only need to do is look at BattleTech's writing. It's horrifyingly bad. Insultingly so.

Hence my reference to Kevin and Rachel.

 

[bobocrunch]

dont care about third world opinions on English writing quality sorry

 

[cpmartins]

dont care about third world opinions on English writing quality sorry

How would you know? Your english is worse than mine.

 

[koyota]

They sold off Hardsuit Labs to someone else. I guess there weren't any takers for Harebrained.

Hardsuit has always been basically a work-for-hire outsourcing contract team. https://www.hardsuitlabs.com/portfolio

They just tried to reach for the sun and failed.
What they do fits in well with any of the outsourcing companies to include it in portfolio of services they can offer to clients, so FORTNITE!, easier sell.

To purchase Harebrained you have to have a company that wants to buy a studio to make tactics games...

 

[bobocrunch]

dont care about third world opinions on English writing quality sorry

How would you know? Your english is worse than mine.

English is a proper noun

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

To purchase Harebrained you have to have a company that wants to buy a studio to make tactics games...

If Microsoft had any sense, they'd purchase Harebrained Schemes for peanuts and put them to work making more Shadowrun and Battletech games, IP owned by Microsoft. But perhaps they're planning to have InXile do it instead.

 

[Zeriel]

how do you part ways with your own subdivision

It's like putting your kid up for adoption.

I'll forever remember how in Dragonfall I got prompted for admin password and absentmindedly typed "admin" and it fucking worked. That game was full of small details like this. HK had some very interesting mission designs though, with the museum spirit and building feng shui

I think the best way to describe HK was: "Great concept, terrible execution." Execution is all that matters in the end, it's just a shame the ideas weren't used properly.

 

[Hellraiser]

how do you part ways with your own subdivision

The only way I can think of it working is that the 'studio' is gone in all but name. HBS has their employees and name... and no IP, licenses, capital, etc. In other words they were all sacked.

The default legal state in this situation would be they have everything they had in their books at the day of their separation minus whatever they traded to paradox for freedom (if anything), as they were probably a separate legal entity just as they were before paradox, with just paradox listed as the owner in whatever is the court register that handles such shit in their region. Assets don't just get absorbed into a megacorp blob when one buys something out, the ownership of them is still in the name of the original company, just now under new management. It is too much work (and taxes) to shift assets around (you need to sell them from one subsidiary/company to the other, legal contracts for rights transfer need to be drawn up) unless you need to move offices or anyway do restructuring EA style (look at how Westwood was shutdown and staff moved into EA LA).

If they had a contract that still got them royalties from Shadowrun/Battletech they might still have that, unless they transferred that over to Paradox to settle their departure and freedom. Although in Paradox's place I would just ask them to pay a fixed settlement fee in cash over some period of time, since that's less of a gamble and easier to valuate.

FYI CDP also "let go" of its original physical game distribution business in Poland by letting some former manager take over the split-off company. It went bankrupt not long after as that market was anyway dying.

 

[Infinitron]

Another example of this is Owlcat Games, who were formally a division of F2P MMO publisher My.com before going independent.

 

[Zanzoken]

The sad thing is that Harebrained were actually a very efficient low budget operation. They pushed out three Shadowrun games (including modding tools!) in the time it took many developers to produce one game. At the time many Codexers were impressed by this, and wished other studios could be like Harebrained.

I don't understand why they didn't keep doing it. Did they not make money, despite seeming to be quite successful on the player end? Or is this another story of bored devs leading to the collapse of a company because they don't want to do the same thing again? Although I have to question the sanity of devs who want to make something that looks like Lampfucker Lounge over Shadowrun.

If you use the number of Steam reviews to estimate sales, then each Shadowrun release performed worse than the last.

Shadowrun Returns: 8.9k reviews
Shadowrun Dragonfall: 4.8k reviews
Shadowrun Hong Kong: 3.2k reviews

A small indie studio could survive off of cranking out a new Shadowrun title every year and continuing to serve that core audience. There is a recipe for success there, if you're content to keep making the same game over and over again... it's what Jeff Vogel has done for the past 25 years.

But I suspect HBS wanted to grow and land a major hit, so they had to pivot to something else. I guess they succeeded with Battletech, but now they are bankrupt, so...

 

[Infinitron]

Shadowrun Dragonfall: 4.8k reviews

This isn't the best comparison though because Dragonfall was originally a DLC for Returns: https://steamdb.info/app/272030/

 

[negator2vc]

If you use the number of Steam reviews to estimate sales, then each Shadowrun release performed worse than the last.

You forget that all three games were initially kickstarter projects which mean most people that wanted to get them (especially after the studio have proven that they can actually make a game)
already got them through kickstarter.
So I don't think that the steam reviews here aren't a good estimate for sales.

 

[Zeriel]

If you use the number of Steam reviews to estimate sales, then each Shadowrun release performed worse than the last.

You forget that all three games were initially kickstarter projects which mean most people that wanted to get them (especially after the studio have proven that they can actually make a game)
already got them through kickstarter.
So I don't think that the steam reviews here aren't a good estimate for sales.

I think looking at peak players is probably fairest way to judge. Which shows Shadowrun Returns as by far their most popular game after Battletech, which had the most. Then you have HK as more popular than Dragonfall. Makes sense, honestly, as depressing as it is. These nostalgia projects get the most attention out of curiosity right out the gate, then followups seem to crash unless they hit gold. See Grimrock for the defining example.

As far as SR:R goes I think it was primed to look really good at a glance and then fall apart when you play it. The SR engine games thrive on how good the writing, level design, and scripting is, but those are not things that come across in screenshots and videos. Before release my expectations for it were really high... then I played it and it sucked, and only came back for DF a lot later, and was surprised at how good it was in comparison. I imagine a lot of people never bothered to come back after SR:R's start turned them off.

 

[Roguey]

Then you have HK as more popular than Dragonfall.

This isn't the best comparison though because Dragonfall was originally a DLC for Returns:

I imagine it had a downward trajectory much like the Fallout New Vegas DLC (each one sold less than the last regardless of reception). A bunch of people already played Dragonfall when it was DLC and didn't bother to play the DC (I'm one of these).

 

[Delterius]

i want to congratulate everyone in this thread for not taking the low hanging fruit of saying that 'this sounds like a harebrained scheme'

 

[Cael]

If you use the number of Steam reviews to estimate sales, then each Shadowrun release performed worse than the last.

You forget that all three games were initially kickstarter projects which mean most people that wanted to get them (especially after the studio have proven that they can actually make a game)
already got them through kickstarter.
So I don't think that the steam reviews here aren't a good estimate for sales.

I think looking at peak players is probably fairest way to judge. Which shows Shadowrun Returns as by far their most popular game after Battletech, which had the most. Then you have HK as more popular than Dragonfall. Makes sense, honestly, as depressing as it is. These nostalgia projects get the most attention out of curiosity right out the gate, then followups seem to crash unless they hit gold. See Grimrock for the defining example.

As far as SR:R goes I think it was primed to look really good at a glance and then fall apart when you play it. The SR engine games thrive on how good the writing, level design, and scripting is, but those are not things that come across in screenshots and videos. Before release my expectations for it were really high... then I played it and it sucked, and only came back for DF a lot later, and was surprised at how good it was in comparison. I imagine a lot of people never bothered to come back after SR:R's start turned them off.

If you play a total conversion mod, is it counted as if you are playing the original? Asking for a friend.

 

[toro]

Harebrained Schemes is independent again: Paradox parts ways with the studio less than a week after confirming major layoffs earlier this year​

Paradox and Harebrained say the split was a mutual decision.

Less than a week after saying that sales of turn-based tactics game The Lamplighters League were "a big disappointment" and confirming major layoffs at developer Harebrained Schemes, Paradox Interactive has announced that it has "decided to part ways" with the studio. Paradox said the split was a mutual decision, "stemming from each party’s strategic and creative priorities," and that HBS will officially be independent again on January 1, 2024.
"Paradox has refocused its strategy towards its core niches within strategy and management games with endless qualities," Paradox COO Charlotta Nilsson said. "We and HBS’ leadership have been discussing what would happen after the release of The Lamplighters League, but a new project or sequel in the same genre was not in line with our portfolio plans. Hence, we believe that a separation would be the best way forward."
The separation will leave Paradox with ownership of The Lamplighters League and "other games developed by the studio," although specifics about which games were not provided. Of particular interest on that front are Harebrained's best-known games, Shadowrun and Battletech: Both videogame series are based on tabletop games created by FASA, an RPG and tabletop gaming company co-founded by Jordan Weisman, who is also the co-founder of Harebrained Schemes.
It's something of a long and complicated history but the short version is that FASA launched a videogame studio called FASA Interactive in the mid '90s, which was eventually acquired by Microsoft. FASA Interactive was closed in 2007, but Microsoft licensed the rights to make new FASA-based videogames back to Weisman through his then-new, now-closed venture Smith and Tinker.
Those rights seemingly went with Weisman when he co-founded Harebrained Schemes in 2011 (the studio made three Shadowrun games and was deep into development of Battletech prior to its acquisition by Paradox) and the absence of those titles in the 'parting of ways' announcement makes me think that Harebrained Schemes may have retained them. HBS offered no insight into that possibility in its own comment on the split.
"Harebrained Schemes will support The Lamplighters League through the end of the year while we seek funding and partnerships for an independent future in 2024," studio operations manager Brian Poel said. "Our studio mission remains the same: to make games that challenge your mind and touch your heart."
What sort of resources Harebrained will have to pursue that mission remains to be seen. One person claiming to be a former employee of the studio said roughly 80% of its employees were laid off in June; Paradox didn't provide numbers in its confirmation but acknowledged that the headcount had been "significantly reduced." The one bright spot for the studio is that it has had consistent success with crowdfunding campaigns for its earlier project: Shadowrun Returns, Shadowrun: Hong Kong, and Battletech all far surpassed their goals on Kickstarter, and they all turned out to be pretty good games, too.

 

[Jedi Master Radek]

If you use the number of Steam reviews to estimate sales, then each Shadowrun release performed worse than the last.

You forget that all three games were initially kickstarter projects which mean most people that wanted to get them (especially after the studio have proven that they can actually make a game)
already got them through kickstarter.
So I don't think that the steam reviews here aren't a good estimate for sales.

I think looking at peak players is probably fairest way to judge. Which shows Shadowrun Returns as by far their most popular game after Battletech, which had the most. Then you have HK as more popular than Dragonfall. Makes sense, honestly, as depressing as it is. These nostalgia projects get the most attention out of curiosity right out the gate, then followups seem to crash unless they hit gold. See Grimrock for the defining example.

As far as SR:R goes I think it was primed to look really good at a glance and then fall apart when you play it. The SR engine games thrive on how good the writing, level design, and scripting is, but those are not things that come across in screenshots and videos. Before release my expectations for it were really high... then I played it and it sucked, and only came back for DF a lot later, and was surprised at how good it was in comparison. I imagine a lot of people never bothered to come back after SR:R's start turned them off.

Shadowrun Returns was the first kicktartered project of the kickstarter era that was released. Take this into the account, because it means that more eyeballs was looking at it than it would was it released a year or two into the future.

 

[Axioms]

The sad thing is that Harebrained were actually a very efficient low budget operation. They pushed out three Shadowrun games (including modding tools!) in the time it took many developers to produce one game. At the time many Codexers were impressed by this, and wished other studios could be like Harebrained.

I don't understand why they didn't keep doing it. Did they not make money, despite seeming to be quite successful on the player end? Or is this another story of bored devs leading to the collapse of a company because they don't want to do the same thing again? Although I have to question the sanity of devs who want to make something that looks like Lampfucker Lounge over Shadowrun.

If you use the number of Steam reviews to estimate sales, then each Shadowrun release performed worse than the last.

Shadowrun Returns: 8.9k reviews
Shadowrun Dragonfall: 4.8k reviews
Shadowrun Hong Kong: 3.2k reviews

A small indie studio could survive off of cranking out a new Shadowrun title every year and continuing to serve that core audience. There is a recipe for success there, if you're content to keep making the same game over and over again... it's what Jeff Vogel has done for the past 25 years.

But I suspect HBS wanted to grow and land a major hit, so they had to pivot to something else. I guess they succeeded with Battletech, but now they are bankrupt, so...

It seems pretty clear they were forced to make a brand new IP from nothing by Paradox. Regardless of any other information, that isn't really their fault. Most new IPs bomb and they weren't a company with any experience in that area.

 

[Roguey]

It seems pretty clear they were forced to make a brand new IP from nothing by Paradox. Regardless of any other information, that isn't really their fault. Most new IPs bomb and they weren't a company with any experience in that area.

https://www.resetera.com/threads/pa...e”-subscription-players.773480/post-113604755

I should probably clarify that like, there was desire at the studio to create new stuff/IP as well, it wasn't just a directive from Paradox. Gamedevs are creative people, there's always plenty of ideas and pitches you're maybe working on. We were really excited about creating Lamplighters from the ground up ( it was in pitch / early dev before BT shipped) - more BT was a maybe a potential option, but it's not like it was THE PLAN until Paradox came along, like people seemingly are taking away here. You have multiple pitches/irons in the fire, until they aren't. I don't know that the license fee was burdensome, but it's just one more thing, and it's a property you ultimately don't control.

 

[Oropay]

there was desire at the studio to create new stuff/IP as well, it wasn't just a directive from Paradox. We were really excited about creating Lamplighters from the ground up ( it was in pitch / early dev before BT shipped). You have multiple pitches/irons in the fire, until they aren't.

I really don't think the basic concept for LL was that bad. I enjoy occult themes, alternate history, and '20s or '30s. Technically I haven't even given the demo a chance, but I hate quippiness and the game basically screamed quips through its artstyle and "diverse" characters. (And likely the designers substitute "diversity" checkboxes for actually interesting, developed, or truly diverse characters.) I definitely don't think that all games have to be doom and gloom, but lite horror or a serious tone is far preferable to embarrassing humor.

Edit: The point being that the execution of the basic conception was flawed. Additionally, the two AP system feels pretty dated and boring at this point, and quests that say "pick up the package" don't exactly pique my interest

 

[Axioms]

It seems pretty clear they were forced to make a brand new IP from nothing by Paradox. Regardless of any other information, that isn't really their fault. Most new IPs bomb and they weren't a company with any experience in that area.

https://www.resetera.com/threads/paradox-writes-down-entire-cost-of-the-lamplighters-league-320m-sek-citing-weak-commercial-success-“cautiously-positive”-subscription-players.773480/post-113604755

I should probably clarify that like, there was desire at the studio to create new stuff/IP as well, it wasn't just a directive from Paradox. Gamedevs are creative people, there's always plenty of ideas and pitches you're maybe working on. We were really excited about creating Lamplighters from the ground up ( it was in pitch / early dev before BT shipped) - more BT was a maybe a potential option, but it's not like it was THE PLAN until Paradox came along, like people seemingly are taking away here. You have multiple pitches/irons in the fire, until they aren't. I don't know that the license fee was burdensome, but it's just one more thing, and it's a property you ultimately don't control.

Well good that they clarified they are stupid and deserve to lose their jobs. Paradox is based I guess.

 

[Axioms]

there was desire at the studio to create new stuff/IP as well, it wasn't just a directive from Paradox. We were really excited about creating Lamplighters from the ground up ( it was in pitch / early dev before BT shipped). You have multiple pitches/irons in the fire, until they aren't.

I really don't think the basic concept for LL was that bad. I enjoy occult themes, alternate history, and '20s or '30s. Technically I haven't even given the demo a chance, but I hate quippiness and the game basically screamed quips through its artstyle and "diverse" characters. (And likely the designers substitute "diversity" checkboxes for actually interesting, developed, or truly diverse characters.) I definitely don't think that all games have to be doom and gloom, but lite horror or a serious tone is far preferable to embarrassing humor.

The vast majority of game "themes/settings/concepts" can be made into an awesome game in theory. Sadly in practice Sturgeon's Law applies.

 

[Jaesun]

Still getting caught up on things, can I assume LLL just failed to meet expectations and then Paradox went, well off you go guys! Thanks! ?

 

[InD_ImaginE]

just failed to meet expectations

This is a massive understatement. The game flopped so hard and basically failed to garner interest at all that they had written off the game before it was released.

well off you go guys! Thanks! ?

In some way yes. And Paradox doesn't need to do all the bullshit like paying severance pay, etc associated with firing people with the studio (they already fired significant amount in June supposedly). It will just go bankrupt after 1 Jan very likely unless HBS can pull something out of its ass in 2 months time.