NWN2 sidesteps from DnD

[Norfleet]

I've never seen a mainstream RPG with the roguelike system. Has there ever been one?

For certain values of RPG, yes.

 

[whatusername]

These are merely uncalled for changes made by Obsidian in claiming that it knows better than people who have been making rpg rulesets for decades.

Ummm...

I don't believe the shit they are spewing out of their mouths.

 

[HotSnack]

The problem with party death is that nothing really happens afterwards. You don't get to go and bury him and then recount tales of him in the pub (or go dancing on his grave). You could probably make a couple of long term quests based on their dying wishes as well so as to encourage players to roll with it and not touch that reload button. It wouldn't even have to be a complex quest; just something like shouting "Timmy sends his regards!" to the main villain in the pre-battle dialogue could suffice.

 

[Nedrah]

If you'd played Gothic 2 properly, you would have recognised that it's a dangerous world, you'd have ventured out carefully, you'd plan your forays, you'd use strategy and avoid most dangerous encounters, in a rational way. Gothic 2 is NOT a game in which you should die every ten minutes.

Instead, people are now playing games with the 'gimme what's coming next now now now, screw this dying shit, I PWONZOR ALL'

The next gen of RPGs should have the player fucking electrocuted at re-load.

Oh. I see. I didn't play gothic 2 properly. Man, I never noticed the gameworld was dangerous. It's so great how you instantly know I played the game without planing and strategy and obviously in a very irrational way. And here I was being pretty sure that the devs actually built in some encounters being fully aware that they'd make you go "ohholyfuckingmotherofabitchshitRUUUUUUUUUN!" if you even had a slight taste for exploration of a, you know, pretty open ended gameworld with plenty of hidden content you'd not or only tangentialy come across when only following the rails.

The fact that places which were safe before were suddenly pure death traps after the transition to a new chapter should have given this away, I have to admit.

I'm so glad there are sources of wisdom like you, dear twinfalls. If only you could have shared your enlightening judgement earlier. Had I known that I was an "I PWNOZOR ALL" moron who demands the greatness that so called modern or next-gen rpg's deliver in terms of game balancing. As it is I thought the game was great and I enjoyed almost every minute of it, including the harsh consequences. And I played it all wrong

Thank you, twinfalls, for obviously you are the bright light that shines through the foolishness of " 'gimme what's coming next now now now, screw this dying shit, I PWONZOR ALL'" people like me who have to reload regularily at gothic 2. Excuse me, I need to attend my daily electrocution session now.

 

[Norfleet]

The problem with party death is that nothing really happens afterwards. You don't get to go and bury him and then recount tales of him in the pub (or go dancing on his grave). You could probably make a couple of long term quests based on their dying wishes as well so as to encourage players to roll with it and not touch that reload button..

See, that would be COOL if there was an entire story or quest thread, a GOOD one, mind you, not a crappy one, based around the entire optional death of a party member who may be killed in battle. As opposed to one where the party member's death is, say, rigged and he always dies. If the people who died actually had a plot thread pertaining to their possible death, and there was something different to experience BECAUSE HE DIED, as opposed to simply having to limp through the rest of the game without him, that'd be neat and worth playing out.

 

[Twinfalls]

Instead, people are now playing games with the 'gimme what's coming next now now now, screw this dying shit, I PWONZOR ALL'

I don't think it's fair to make some retarded generalized quote about gamers, Twinfalls.

For the most part, people like overpowered PrCs. They like having things made easy. They like hitting 20th level. They like strong, linear stories (some branching) with good scripted narratives more than they like open worlds with radically diverging storylines. They like clear good and evil.

ToEE was a hardcore game with an early level cap and no PrCs. It was very popular among hardcore gamers. I liked it a lot, personally. The problem is that hardcore gamers are a small portion of the larger game market.

So Sawyer makes retarded generalised quotes about gamers.

@ Nedrah, didn't mean that personally - okay, so you're not 'one of them', but you know what I'm fuckin' talking about.

Thank you, twinfalls, for obviously you are the bright light that shines through the foolishness

Nice to be appreciated once in a while. :wink:

 

[StraitLacedDeviant]

You suck Twinfalls....


(once again the world is in balance. )

 

[Jasede]

1. You suck, Twinfalls! [insult]
2. You suck, Twinfalls! [joke]
3. You, Nedrah, suck Twinfalls('s cock)! [intimidate]
4. You, Nedrah, suck Twinfalls('s cock)! [admire]
5. You, all of you, suck Twinfall('s cock)! [mad propz]
6. You, all of you, suck Twinfall('s cock)! [whore]

 

[StraitLacedDeviant]

1 followed by 3 followed by 6.

 

[crufty]

If the battle difficulties are raised it could work out ok--provided TPK have reall consequences. On the flipside...sometimes having characters die off wasn't so bad. Like sparky in u7 for example.

Kinda makes traps irrelevant though.

 

[Crichton]

Then you have to ask yourself whether you can take him on with the resources you have left-over from your previous battle.

Re-loading simply lets you try again. Having everyone magically re-appear at the end though defeats the entire purpose. Imagine a large battle where you may lose 2 companions of the 5 in your group. Harry the Paladin and Mary the Bard. You re-group and move on and are later attacked by zombie's which Harry would've been quite useful for.

It's quite true that the KOTOR/shining force system is useless for "dungeons" designed to wear a party down with lots of little fights. But I've always thought that was tedious bullshit anyway, I'd much rather that every fight have the possiblity of wiping out the party, but if it isn't wiped out, there's no "trudge back to the temple" or "cast super-mega miracle that should only happen once in the game" or "carefully manage your scrolls/potions/money". They all seem a lot more like certified public accountancy (or the sims) than a real tactical game (like shining force as it happens).

Kinda makes traps irrelevant though.

Also true, but I never liked traps that weren't accompanied by combat anyway, sort of like a unattended mine, useless, but getting around it involves taking rogue, turning on his "spider sense" and moving him ever so slowly forward, no thinking, just more tedious bullshit. Traps used as part of a battle still work and are great (like the ones in the two demon fights in IWD).

I should also like to add that they seem to be catering more to the below average imbecile instead of the roleplaying audience that enjoyed the first Neverwinter Nights and the Baldur's Gate games.

I can't imagine anyone more intelligent than fungus liking NWN.

 

[Jasede]

"Anyone more intelligent than fungus"? This is completely uncalled for! I mean, Volourn liked NWN!!!

 

[Volourn]

Yeah; but I'm a dumbfuck so I'm dumber than a fungus!

LOLOLOLOLOLLIPOP

 

[Norfleet]

If the battle difficulties are raised it could work out ok--provided TPK have reall consequences. On the flipside...sometimes having characters die off wasn't so bad. Like sparky in u7 for example.

I think the customary consequence of TPK is that you lose and the game is over.

 

[Binary]

NWN2 has a totally new rez system. Every time a character dies, the hero goes to the realm of the dead and has to tell Kelemvor "REZ ME U N00B!!!1111!!!11!11!!!!" and he will be brought back to the party.

 

[Admiral Rimjob POOBUM]

NWN2 has a totally new rez system. Every time a character dies, the hero goes to the realm of the dead and has to tell Kelemvor "REZ ME U N00B!!!1111!!!11!11!!!!" and he will be brought back to the party.

I believe there was actually a NWN module that did that. :\ "An Ancient Heart".

 

[Gambler]

You are forgetting that Torment had a modified D&D system, and it worked perfectly fine.

Oh, wait a sec, any true codexer knows for a fact that Torment is a crappy combat-focused game, just like KOTOR2 is. Well, never mind then.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Oh, wait a sec, any true codexer knows for a fact that Torment is a crappy game focused on combat, just like KOTOR2. Well, never mind then.

Haha. Funny. Unlike KOTOR 2, PST doesn't force you to fight waves of enemies at every step.

 

[Gambler]

Unlike KOTOR 2, PST doesn't force you to fight waves of enemies at every step.

According to some people, it does.

Anyways, combat in KOTOR2 takes much less time than other parts of the game. Most of the battles are quite easy, some of them are entirely avoidable, and you can use non-combat skills to help you to deal with the enemies. Heck, you can just walk away (or stun and then walk away) from most of the battles. Goto ship and Malachor were the only locations where combat was a significant factor, and I bet that Malachor would have much les enemies if Obsidian had the time to finish the game properly. It is obvious that the last part of the game was made in a big rush.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Unlike KOTOR 2, PST doesn't force you to fight waves of enemies at every step.

According to some people, it does.

You've gotta be kidding me.

Anyways, combat in KOTOR2 takes much less time than other parts of the game.

Let's compare then, shall we?

PST starts in the Mortuary: 3 levels, 0 hostile by default NPCs, lotsa NPC interaction (examine, perform actions, assist, disguise, lie, even betray), high role-playing potential, and even an alternative exit.

KOTOR 2 starts on Peragus (or whatever the station is called): 9 fucking levels filled with hostile mining robots that attack you the moment you open doors, non-existent role-playing unless you count being able to open extra doors or chests due to your mad skillz. All important doors are cut-scene only for extra story telling goodness: "And now, kids, I'll tell you what's behind this door. It's a big ass robot! And it's angry at you. Kill it! Kill it!". A forced fight in the end when the assassin robot makes his "move".

To sum it up: 3 levels filled with NPCs to interact with vs 9 levels filled with hostile robots.

And so on.

 

[Drakron]

The point I was trying to make with that reply was PS:T have REQUIRED combat ... you could not bypass it.

Very diferent from "3 enemies at every 10 steps" that KotOR2 thrown at us ... as VD shown PS:T really did not had the "wave of enemies" at every areas ... true it had then at some points (worst offender being the lower planes areas) but most of the game was set in areas that had no "turn red on sight" NPCs.

 

[Gambler]

Let's compare then, shall we?

Torment is Torment. I didn't say KOTOR2 is as good. I said that it focuses on story and character development instead of combat.

non-existent role-playing unless you count being able to open extra doors or chests due to your mad skillz

What about using medical skills to read logs about patient treatment? What about all the console-slicing? What about raising temperature so robots can't see you using their heat sensors? What about repairing and upgrading broken bots so they fight for you? What about dialogues, which are affected by your choices, your stats, skills and gender?

Yeah, you fight with some robots. It's a Star Wars game, for god's sake. You also read craploads of text (if you want), meet with Kreia and Atton, learn about the fate of the station, assasin droids and that republic ship. The important thing is that there are a lot of meaningful events and new information. That's storyline for you. Compare that with the KOTOR1, where you just fought your way out of the ship without being given any information, and without meeting a single important character. Now that's combat-oriented.

 

[Volourn]

"Unlike KOTOR 2, PST doesn't force you to fight waves of enemies at every step."

Pretty darn close to it.

 

[denizsi]

I wonder if there will be a cheat code to turn the default god mode off in NWN2.

 

[kingcomrade]

Like there was a (-n inverse) cheat code to turn off the compass in Oblivion?