Gold Box What is your opinion on turn-based "blobber"-esque combat?

[rusty_shackleford]

AKA theater of the mind combat which abstracts positioning to some degree, and/or takes place on a separate combat area.

Lords of Xulima is a fairly standard example:

Wizardry 8 has positioning but treats the party as one big 'blob':

Darkest Dungeon has positioning on a single row:

Gordian Quest has row and column:

Do you personally think any games have done this style of combat particularly well or tacticool?
Do you think there is a single name for this style of combat? Multiple terms for each subtype?

What about Albion? Where do you think this falls?

 

[Humbaba]

If it's good like Wizardry 8 then it's good.

 

[__scribbles__]

I actually prefer abstraction to many other, flashier/concrete representations of my characters' actions, because what my imagination can come up with is far cooler than any animation made by the creators of the game. It's become part of the appeal of older games for me, it's kind of like reading a fight scene in a book.
I haven't played enough blobbers to give a definitive opinion, but I'm a fan of Wasteland's combat - even if it is just a few dice rolls and a portrait of the enemy - for the reason given above.

 

[xuerebx]

I loved W8's combat configuration (first blobber for me), but from your list I don't really like the "single row" representation. Feels too much like those movies were a million enemies keep fighting one on one with the hero instead of attacking all together at once (but I'm not sure how the combat in Darkest Dungeon actually pans out).

 

[Butter]

It's not blobber combat when it shows your characters on screen (Darkest Dungeon).

 

[Artyoan]

I liked Darkest Dungeon's combat with positioning mattering as to skill usage but didn't care for most of the systems in the game. I didn't play it very long as a result.

Wizardry 8 positioning in the grid was fun but movement during combat when there are many ranged enemies was annoying. It worked better when melee enemies would wrap around the party and you needed to use terrain to an advantage. Been a long time and my memory is getting fuzzy on the game though.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

It's not blobber combat when it shows your characters on screen (Darkest Dungeon).

is wasteland a blobber?

 

[Butter]

It's not blobber combat when it shows your characters on screen (Darkest Dungeon).

is wasteland a blobber?

Does Wasteland show your characters on screen during combat?

 

[rusty_shackleford]

It's not blobber combat when it shows your characters on screen (Darkest Dungeon).

is wasteland a blobber?

Does Wasteland show your characters on screen during combat?

Wizardry 7 shows your character's portraits, is it a blobber?

 

[Butter]

It's not blobber combat when it shows your characters on screen (Darkest Dungeon).

is wasteland a blobber?

Does Wasteland show your characters on screen during combat?

Wizardry 7 shows your character's portraits, is it a blobber?

Congrats on not knowing the difference between a character and a portrait, and on being a smartass pedant.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

It's not blobber combat when it shows your characters on screen (Darkest Dungeon).

is wasteland a blobber?

Does Wasteland show your characters on screen during combat?

Wizardry 7 shows your character's portraits, is it a blobber?

Congrats on not knowing the difference between a character and a portrait, and on being a smartass pedant.

But the portraits represent positioning.

 

[octavius]

I think MM2 did traditional blobber combat best, having both decent tactics for such simplistic combat, but also because it's quick. With spells that affect all enemies, as well as enemies being able to surrender, it never grows stale.
Wiz8 has better combat, or at least it's more tactical, but it's a very curious mix of real time and TB, with different rules applying to your blob and the monsters. It's like chocolate; good in small doses, but too much and I get nauseous.

 

[mondblut]

Pure blob combat is fine. It is roleplaying* distilled down to its essence, a competition of luck, resource management and skill in building an efficient party, not diluted with "tactics" (aka exploiting the dumb ai with cheap tricks).

Pimping it out with sideways display, faux movement over a 4x4 grid, spastically jerking characters and other casual crap is ruining it.

* as in tabletop games of D&D and its derivatives, not as in dressing up in a latex nurse costume.

 

[Reality]

Pure Blobber, especially if it gets to the point of 0 Text Delay or Page Down Command repeat last round. No other RPG subtype has the speed necessary to achieve zen.

 

[Modron]

Wasteland has blobber combat but autists here don't like you calling it a blobber.

 

[Gregz]

It's an excellent system.

Thanks for reminding me that I'm due for my LoX replay.

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

I don't like blobbers. They're a relic of technical limitation. It's like sacrificing all of the value of PnP for almost none of the value brought by a PC. The chief value of digitizing RPGs is that the PC can handle orchestration of the world and game system. If it doesn't do that, why bother? I'd rather play an PnP with minis on a table than play a blobber.

 

[Morblot]

My opinion? It's fine, I don't have a problem with it. I like it more than RT first person combat, either of the DM or FNV variety. In fact, now that I think about it, I might actually even prefer it to TB top-down combat due to its (usually) greater speed and the (usually) welcome abstraction.

 

[Butter]

I don't like blobbers. They're a relic of technical limitation. It's like sacrificing all of the value of PnP for almost none of the value brought by a PC. The chief value of digitizing RPGs is that the PC can handle orchestration of the world and game system. If it doesn't do that, why bother? I'd rather play an PnP with minis on a table than play a blobber.

How else would you do first-person gameplay with full party control?

 

[rusty_shackleford]

I don't like blobbers. They're a relic of technical limitation. It's like sacrificing all of the value of PnP for almost none of the value brought by a PC.

I'd rather play an PnP with minis on a table than play a blobber.

Something I've seen repeatedly believed on this forum — entirely falsely — is that D&D had grid-based combat.
...

It did not. D&D did not have grid-based combat(BECMI might have as an optional rule? too lazy to look it up), and neither did AD&D. AD&D 2E had a supplement for grid-based combat that was the basis for 3E's combat, the first edition to use grid-based combat. But AD&D 2E, RAW, did not have grid-based combat.

I'm not sure if it's Goldbox or 3E that is causing this belief.

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

Butter The same way Betrayal at Krondor or Dark Queen of Krynn did it. In the modern age, probably more like the upcoming Archaelund. It looks like Albion threaded that needle, but I've never played it.

rusty_shackleford I never mentioned D&D. I'm sure you or others could explain how AoEs work without a grid, but we can all easily understand why a grid is superior. Minis have existed forever. Even if grids aren't mentioned it RAW, I think that people have simply been making their own grid spontaneously since the beginning. D&D had distances/dimensions named all over the place and is born of wargaming. Grids are natural to it.

 

[Butter]

Butter The same way Betrayal at Krondor or Dark Queen of Krynn did it. In the modern age, probably more like the upcoming Archaelund. It looks like Albion threaded that needle, but I've never played it.

Albion is a strange animal, but Krondor and the Gold Box games just do blobber movement with top-down combat, same as The Dark Heart of Uukrul or how some of the Ultima games do dungeons.

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

Butter The same way Betrayal at Krondor or Dark Queen of Krynn did it. In the modern age, probably more like the upcoming Archaelund. It looks like Albion threaded that needle, but I've never played it.

Albion is a strange animal, but Krondor and the Gold Box games just do blobber movement with top-down combat, same as The Dark Heart of Uukrul or how some of the Ultima games do dungeons.

You're correct, I suppose. Does one need to control the entire party simultaneously though? Since you're still only clicking one action at a time, it seems mostly like UI arrangement. A distinction without a difference. On a technical level, first person party-based it entirely possible. I can imagine playing D:OS2 that way, taking the perspective of the active character each round. It sounds kind of interesting/novel. People hated NWN2 camera though, which when in exploration mode came very close to first-person party based combat. I never had a problem with it.

 

[wishbonetail]

It's not blobber combat when it shows your characters on screen (Darkest Dungeon).

is wasteland a blobber?

Does Wasteland show your characters on screen during combat?

Wizardry 7 shows your character's portraits, is it a blobber?

Congrats on not knowing the difference between a character and a portrait, and on being a smartass pedant.

But the portraits represent positioning.

It's a HUD thing. "Blobber" is like piloting a mech.

So, concerning combat, Phantasy Star 3 is a blobber

and Phantasy Star 2 is not.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Grids are natural to it.

No, they aren't.
The combat was not played out on a grid, Gygax was actually surprised how few people even used miniatures at all in one of the first major conventions he went to.

So, how did distances work?
This is from the AD&D 2E DMG:

The game most faithful to this I can think of off the top of my head is actually Neo Scavenger. Which has blobber-esque combat, except for being single character.

Grids & battlemaps were not expected. Miniatures were an optional rule in AD&D, and not mentioned at all in 2E(iirc)

The primary motivation for pushing miniatures was because TSR made money off of them, btw. Just look at this:

Pay for the miniatures by levying a fee on your players, and make sure to only use our approved miniatures