Anime Poll: CRPGs and the Japanese Question.

[Fedora Master]

False choice.
No dialogue options = Not an RPG
No choice and consequence = Not an RPG

 

[mushaden]

Were any of them made in Japan? If so, they are not CRPG. Then, are they on computer? If so, they are CRPG.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

You control more than one character = Not an RPG

 

[V_K]

I see no hole, this poll is solely about games A, B and C and all other games are not relevant.

They are relevant because if you consider B an RPG and C not, how do you classify all the games that are in-between? If you want to draw a hard border, you need to specify where.

and they will be a threat when the original players don't even know what they want.

What does that even mean.

Defining genres might not make much sense when you think of them as collections of mechanics, but those who believe genres are defined by goals (mechanics being only means to achieve them, and not the only ones) will want to set boudries as soon as possible. Tacticool games pretending to be RPGs, fantasy novels with combat, action dopamine-boosters, and Disco Elysium, they all happen when you use RPG mechanics to pursue very different goals.

Quite frankly, I see zero value in such pedantry. Is it going to stop anyone from using "RPG" as a buzzword? No. Is it going to force anyone to buy games squarely based on their genre tag? Also no. Is it going to stop anyone from disputing such genre definition as too narrow? Make a wild guess.

 

[Bruma Hobo]

I see no hole, this poll is solely about games A, B and C and all other games are not relevant.

They are relevant because if you consider B an RPG and C not, how do you classify all the games that are in-between? If you want to draw a hard border, you need to specify where.

I don't.

Quite frankly, I see zero value in such pedantry. Is it going to stop anyone from using "RPG" as a buzzword? No. Is it going to force anyone to buy games squarely based on their genre tag? Also no. Is it going to stop anyone from disputing such genre definition as too narrow? Make a wild guess.

Some little comprehension about what should and should not be a role-playing game, and not cultural differences or xenophobia, put a J in front of JRPG, which is a flawed distinction since Japan can make actual RPGs, but a very useful one too. If you ignore it and merge all CRPG and JRPG discussions then every time an Arcanum fan asks for a similar C&C-heavy game the thread would be filled with Chrono Trigger suggestions, I've seen this happen in places like reddit. A lack of understanding on the other hand has made people gobble up shitty storyfag games with branching storylines and silly ending slides thinking they were getting actual C&C, I've seen this happen here.

 

[V_K]

If you ignore it and merge all CRPG and JRPG discussions then every time an Arcanum fan asks for a similar C&C-heavy game the thread would be filled with Chrono Trigger suggestions, I've seen this happen in places like reddit.

...because filling it with Skyrim and Dragon Age suggestions will be oh so much better.

 

[JarlFrank]

Beware, by not voting for game C, you're throwing Betrayal at Krondor under the bus. :smug.

Betrayal at Krondor is a novel with some tacked-on RPG mechanics

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

I guess you could say ALL CRPGS/MMORPGS are NOT RPGS. No DM, no stupid shit you can do at ALL times like.. stay in the inn and eat the roast duck in the toilet after crawling inside the shitter with the barmaid and have a dance party down there while your party members toss down coins and pour oil in, then light a fart and watch the inn explode in glorious hollywood fashion with bodies doing backflips over everything.

 

[Bruma Hobo]

If you ignore it and merge all CRPG and JRPG discussions then every time an Arcanum fan asks for a similar C&C-heavy game the thread would be filled with Chrono Trigger suggestions, I've seen this happen in places like reddit.

...because filling it with Skyrim and Dragon Age suggestions will be oh so much better.

Still better than Chrono Trigger, despite Chrono Trigger being the better game of the three.



Here's another question. Can a game be an RPG while allowing little-to-no agency on how the plot unfolds? (what is player agency anyway, and how can we quantify it?)

Notice how the plot can be about a simplistic dungeon crawl, the very first Wizardry for instance allows plenty of agency, and its mechanics were designed to deliver pretty unique adventures depending on how each player plays. Here GeorgGreat explains how Ultima I accomplishes the same thing through very different (and broken) mechanics (30:42):

https://invidio.us/watch?v=mPYJqJhE9ts&t=30m42s



But what happens when designers take these same mechanics, and decide to expand the non-interactive aspects of the plot? What if this linear story ends up dwarfing the original player-driven plot? Is it still the same kind of experience?

 

[gurugeorge]

Consider this:

Game A is a dungeon crawler with a minimalistic plot, where you choose the main attributes of your player characters (Strength, Intelligence, Charisma), fight monsters, grab phat lewt, and explore a maze in monocled turn-based fashion.

Game B is a clone of game A where you can also explore an overworld map and talk to NPCs. Since game A didn't design interesting social and travel mechanics, in game B you won't find things like hunting skills, thieving mechanics or dialogue options, and even your Charisma score won't affect the way you talk to NPCs (your PCs are still mute, btw).

Game C is like game B, but your main characters have predefined personalities, and they really love to say and do all sorts of things without your consent. Also, if the writers demand that your PC must act dumb for plot reasons despite his genius level INT score, then you're out of luck. Game journos love this game because it adds depth to a previously shallow genre with simplistic characters and plots.

Now, which of these games should be considered CRPGs and which ones shouldn't? Remember, these are all mechanically identical games, but despite that we must draw a line somewhere. Now do.

What is this I don't even.

They're all CRPGs, the only important question is how well or how badly they're done.

 

[octavius]

The only CRPGs that come close to being role playing games (in the wider meaning of the word), are Fallout 1 and 2, since you can role play widely different characters and (unlike the TES games) the game will react to it.
But it's still very limited compared to what a human GM can do. So if role playing (still in the wider meaning) is important to you, you should play table top RPGs, not CRPGs (or JRPGs).
In the meantime interactive novels like PST is just as much a CRPG as Fallout (but IMO clearly inferior as a game).

 

[Bruma Hobo]

But I hate people.

 

[gurugeorge]

The only CRPGs that come close to being role playing games (in the wider meaning of the word), are Fallout 1 and 2, since you can role play widely different characters and (unlike the TES games) the game will react to it.
But it's still very limited compared to what a human GM can do. So if role playing (still in the wider meaning) is important to you, you should play table top RPGs, not CRPGs (or JRPGs).
In the meantime interactive novels like PST is just as much a CRPG as Fallout (but IMO clearly inferior as a game).

No, the only CRPGs that come close to being roleplaying games are NWN/2 persistent worlds where a DM guides your on a quest or adventure, and the team actually roleplays (i.e. does a bit of improvised amateur dramatics, even if only lightly). In that way, both senses of "roleplay" are covered (mechanics and LARPing).

 

[V_K]

If you ignore it and merge all CRPG and JRPG discussions then every time an Arcanum fan asks for a similar C&C-heavy game the thread would be filled with Chrono Trigger suggestions, I've seen this happen in places like reddit.

...because filling it with Skyrim and Dragon Age suggestions will be oh so much better.

Still better than Chrono Trigger, despite Chrono Trigger being the better game of the three.

So you'd rather someone played a worse game as long as it is the "right" genre? I'm sorry but that's just dumb.

 

[Bruma Hobo]

Next time you ask for an RPG I will recommend an excellent flight simulator.

 

[octavius]

No, the only CRPGs that come close to being roleplaying games are NWN/2 persistent worlds where a DM guides your on a quest or adventure, and the team actually roleplays (i.e. does a bit of improvised amateur dramatics, even if only lightly). In that way, both senses of "roleplay" are covered (mechanics and LARPing).

You have a point there.
You're still dependent on other people, though.

 

[gurugeorge]

No, the only CRPGs that come close to being roleplaying games are NWN/2 persistent worlds where a DM guides your on a quest or adventure, and the team actually roleplays (i.e. does a bit of improvised amateur dramatics, even if only lightly). In that way, both senses of "roleplay" are covered (mechanics and LARPing).

You have a point there.
You're still dependent on other people, though.

I'm not sure what you mean, how can you have a game where there isn't at least a second party (even if you're solo) - either a living person or the developers or an AI or something like that? The game world has to be made to unfurl before you in some way, you can't do it yourself as you go.

 

[Bruma Hobo]

You don't need other people to LARP while playing a hack and slash game though.

 

[dacencora]

The question is less “how well does it simulate TTRPG” and more “how closely does it simulate Wizardry”. The closer it is to Wizardry, the more it is a cRPG. Ergo, the purest cRPG is Wizardry. Many Western RPGs in recent years have strayed far from Wizardry. Japanese RPGs tend to better simulate Wizardry.

 

[Reader]

I think that the main problem with JRPGs is not presence or absence of good mechanics, meaningful choices or linearity.
I think it's absolutely cringy writing and characters in most JRPGs.
All these seventeen years old colonels, ship captains and scientists.
All these pompous speeches.
All these prevailings with the power of will/friendship/love.. With shiny aura of course.
And of course absolutely illogical, moronical actions here and there.
All these actually lowering the stakes of the plot and empathy to characters.

And yeah, there is more to RPG than just mechanics. I'm not a storyfag, far from it, but we all need at least basic background, a reason why we're there for a campaign. Even Doom and Heretic has some backstory.
That's also why we value a good DM in tabletops.

 

[dacencora]

While teenage protagonists are an annoying problem in JRPGs, I have found that JRPGs are very different than how many Codexers talk about them. I think you guys are playing the wrong JRPGs, tbh.

 

[Bruma Hobo]

The question is less “how well does it simulate TTRPG” and more “how closely does it simulate Wizardry”. The closer it is to Wizardry, the more it is a cRPG. Ergo, the purest cRPG is Wizardry. Many Western RPGs in recent years have strayed far from Wizardry. Japanese RPGs tend to better simulate Wizardry.

Japan does an awful job at emulating Wizardry though, to the point that only their most derivative and unoriginal clones convey the same kind of experience (and then, they become boring because they're the same-old 40 year old game, but with pedophilic art).

 

[dacencora]

Japan does an awful job at emulating Wizardry though, to the point that only their most derivative and unoriginal clones convey the same kind of experience (and then, they become boring because they're the same-old 40 year old game, but with pedophilic art).

You’re exactly the kind of poster I’m talking about. I don’t know what you’re on about. Shin Megami Tensei is possibly one of the most fun Wiz-likes I’ve played.

 

[Old Hans]

The question is less “how well does it simulate TTRPG” and more “how closely does it simulate Wizardry”. The closer it is to Wizardry, the more it is a cRPG. Ergo, the purest cRPG is Wizardry. Many Western RPGs in recent years have strayed far from Wizardry. Japanese RPGs tend to better simulate Wizardry.

Japan does an awful job at emulating Wizardry though, to the point that only their most derivative and unoriginal clones convey the same kind of experience (and then, they become boring because they're the same-old 40 year old game, but with pedophilic art).

sometimes they accidently make a good wizardry clone, like Dark Spire or Tales of the Forsaken Land, but those are like finding a unicorn

 

[dacencora]

Anyway, I’m not gonna convince a bunch of edgelords that they’re wrong about JRPGs. Honestly, refusing to play them because of some misplaced sense of superiority is pretty retarded. If people want to miss out on incredibly fun RPGs, that’s their prerogative I suppose lol.