AoD vignettes & screens

[Rulion]

I love the way it is right now. It defines the different character experiences, right from the start. As a player, I would see the way one class starts and then immediately try out all the others for the best experience.

I hope you don't change it. Like you said, you couldn't leave the Vault without the waterchip quest - the way it is now gives it purpose.

 

[Atrokkus]

Speaking of American vs British, I think that first off, it doesn't matter whcih you choose, because the world is fictional. But I do agree that this should be consistent, that is if you choose American, then make this NPC speak it all the time. That's a very common approach in, particularily, fantasy RPGs: different races/factions/classes speak different English dialects, and I think that is the right way to do it. However, the way you distribute those dialects among the natives of your world poses another question.
Say, you could make all the inner city dwellers talk british, but some countryside fellers would have those popular yankee elements in their speech. You could also incorporate different British dialects (Scottish, Irish...), but I'm not sure if this is required, and if you have the sufficient understanding of the differences. I know, it's pretty damn hard for a non-native speaker to grasp all those numerous dialect differences.

You're not American? What are you then?

I presume he's the only Atlantis-dweller alive. See, he told us he was sailing a lot. Now he keeps his mouth shut about his original language. Go figure.

 

[galsiah]

I was never suggesting "choosing British", just choosing neutral to start with. There are usually other ways to say things, which are neither specifically British or American. Some of these will probably fit with the character in question.

I'm fine with american English, since I can easily view that as the language of the game world. The only trouble is right at the start when I'm not yet involved. It's not a big issue, but I thought I'd mention it, since it does draw my attention to the spelling of "ass" when ideally it should be elsewhere.

 

[Twinfalls]

The problem seems intractable because of the parameters VD has set (must have total freedom, can't play through gameworld without map, must have vignette).

Flashback seems like the best option in the circumstances, and allows for some nice narrative prose at the outset. There's no reason why you can't tailor the mechanic (flashback, forced railroad) according to profession I suppose.

Also, any reason why you might not fill up the wasted space somewhat like this?

 

[Vault Dweller]

The problem seems intractable because of the parameters VD has set (must have total freedom, can't play through gameworld without map, must have vignette).

Vignettes are not "must have". I can easily replace them all with "a dying merchant gave you a map" stuff, but like I said, it's less interesting.

Also, any reason why you might not fill up the wasted space somewhat like this?

Let me play with it.

 

[protobob]

I think short viginettes are cool. ToEE's openings were very short, yes, but they worked. What I don't want to see is some overly long, restrictive opening. It seems like a lot of RPGs want to do this. I'm thinking BG, BG2, Fallout 2, etc. These games stick you in some linear place and make you stick around awhile.

The first thing I think of every time I think about replaying these games is, "Oh crap, I have to go through the Temple of Trials, AGAIN," or "Candlekeep, how I hate thee." And that dungeon at the beginning of BG2? Forget about it.

So to sum it up: restrictions are fine as long as the freedom of the game is not delayed too much.

 

[Atrokkus]

By the way, nice idea would be to incorprate all (or some of) aforementioned options, one for each class/profession.

I might be wrong (not very familiar with all the intricacies of the game yet), but for a loremaster finding a map somewhere (like, dying merchan, but it could be anything) would be more than appropriate. Much suitable than stalking someone, that's for sure.

That is, we should focus on the skills each class excells at, and build an according vignette. Killing someone is great for an assassin, discovering a map -- loremaster, raiding bandit camp and finding the map there -- "knight", pickpocketting it from someone - thief... kind of like that. Or even giving several classes the flashback routine.
That would also increase the replay value, because the player would feel the difference right from the start. If, story-wise, that proves kind of problematic, then you could just alternate the aforementioned "radical" alternatives like flashback among the classes.

Does that make sense?

 

[Vault Dweller]

Does that make sense?

No. It would mean that one item - the map - is everywhere. It's with the dying merchant, it's in the bandit camp, it's in someone's pocket, etc. One of the reason I picked that mini-story with the merchant is because it keeps the object in one place and allows/give different people different reasons/opportunities to acquire it. It's more realistic that way.

 

[Atrokkus]

Hmm. That's arguable. It's not unrealistic, it's just a different approach. You don't have all those classes acting at once, right? I mean, it's not like you're just switching characters. It's only one at a time, that is the preceding course of events was different each time, at least it could be.

Well, whatever, I guess it's clinging to the wrong idea.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Hmm. That's arguable. It's not unrealistic, it's just a different approach. You don't have all those classes acting at once, right?

They all play their parts in the mini-story. Even if you are the assassin, a merc would be there to guard the merchant, a loremaster would be sent to appraise, a knight would be sent to investigate, etc. The only question is "what would you do and how?"

 

[Atrokkus]

I see. Hey, that's one damn good concept you got there.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Thanks.

 

[Astromarine]

why don't you have a short text at the very beginning, like the character reflecting on something (war never changes etc) then looking at the map he has in his hand, and wondering on what the future will bring. He thinks something like "I wonder if this piece of junk will be worth the trouble I had to get it... It all started with..."

THEN you do a fade, and the character starts at the vignette. You play it out, perfectly aware that it is linear, because it is in the "past" of where the game actually starts. Play it till the end, fade back out, give a bit more text like "Well, never mind. What's done is done, and now I have to decide what to do next".

The game starts.

 

[Atrokkus]

Elegant. Simple. I like it.

However, despite it being generally linear, the vignette should have some choices, albeit not fundamental. You are set with a prehistory, but you define the details, so to speak.

Just gotta be sure to make it look like a flashback event. Intro text might be enough, but perhaps some other stylization is in order?

 

[Vault Dweller]

Thanks, Astro, it's a good idea overall, developing the flashback concept further, but the problem is, while vignettes are linear, because I'm restricting the freedom of do something else, there are multiple meaningful choices in each vignette. So, remembering something is a one thing, and linearity would be perfectly acceptable there, but making choices "in the past" would feel kinda weird, no?

 

[Atrokkus]

Why? It's just a presentation. Part of the game, really.

 

[Atrokkus]

the only condition is that the events were taking place not long ago, so that there would be no change in stats.

Ive never seen an introduction like that. Could be neat.

Basically, it equals to the gametime jump during the game, like "some time later...".
As long as the main path of this vignette is linear -- you always get the damn map at the end -- it should work just fine.

 

[Jora]

Thanks, Astro, it's a good idea overall, developing the flashback concept further, but the problem is, while vignettes are linear, because I'm restricting the freedom of do something else, there are multiple meaningful choices in each vignette. So, remembering something is a one thing, and linearity would be perfectly acceptable there, but making choices "in the past" would feel kinda weird, no?

No, I think it worked well in KotOR 2. It was already decided that Revan fought Malak in Starforge but the player gets to decide what heppened afterwards.

 

[DMKW]

I think short viginettes are cool. ToEE's openings were very short, yes, but they worked. What I don't want to see is some overly long, restrictive opening. It seems like a lot of RPGs want to do this. I'm thinking BG, BG2, Fallout 2, etc. These games stick you in some linear place and make you stick around awhile.

The first thing I think of every time I think about replaying these games is, "Oh crap, I have to go through the Temple of Trials, AGAIN," or "Candlekeep, how I hate thee." And that dungeon at the beginning of BG2? Forget about it.

So to sum it up: restrictions are fine as long as the freedom of the game is not delayed too much.

I agree with protobob. Vinettes are nice once or twice. After that they become more a nuisance. Maybe an option to skip forward?

 

[Vault Dweller]

Well, long and tedious sequences are always boring, regardless of their roles in the game. Bloodlines' Ocean Hotel was a great initial experience, but a replay killer once you've done it once. MW had many painfully boring quests, etc. ToEE's vignettes were fine, but the starting town was horrible. Thank God, you could skip it completely.

The point is boring and tedious stuff sucks. Interesting stuff that supports variety and choices doesn't. Now I need to figure out which one I've designed.

Overall though, you've made a good point. Once you start remembering, it feels like something that should be skipped. If you feel that you are playing a game, even though you are not allowed to do whatever you want right away, it's a different story.

 

[Jora]

Overall though, you've made a good point. Once you start remembering, it feels like something that should be skipped. If you feel that you are playing a game, even though you are not allowed to do whatever you want right away, it's a different story.

That's the right way to look at it. The vignettes in AoD don't sound very limiting (I don't think many people complained about the fact that you can't travel to Tarant right away after leaving the crash site), they are pretty short and there seems to be many ways to handle them, so I don't think the average player even realises the actual game hasn't even started.

 

[Jora]

Basically, if the starting town is at least as interesting as Shrouded Hills and shorter, it's not going to be a problem for anyone.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Much more interesting (more quests & choices) and longer. Not to mention that once you did all available (to your character) quests, the town isn't dead. More quests would be "generated" based on different events, so the towns would stay "alive" till the end.

 

[Jora]

But if the player chooses to go straight to the merchant, he can do so and end the quest? Starting areas are tedious only if they consist of running in endless corridors of a space station killing mutant ants and shadow thieves of Amn. If the town is interesting and the main quest can be got quickly and in a number of different ways, nobody will mind.

 

[Vault Dweller]

But if the player chooses to go straight to the merchant, he can do so and end the quest?

I was talking about the starting town, which is where the vignette takes place. As for the vignette, it's reasonably fast: you start at your "guildmaster"'s place, have a chat, then you are transported to the inn where deal with the merchant one way or another, get the scroll, transported back to the guildmaster, have another chat, and that's it - everything is open to you. Until then, you can do nothing, but follow the vignette.